Looking to the five years ahead, how worried are you about Uk universities?

[Delphigirl]

I am asking this from the perspective of a parent with one finished uni, one in progress, one starting in September and a fourth applying next year.

Is there any prospect of this government sorting out the key issues - paying academics properly, raising domestic fees to restore the value lost by inflation, dealing with freedom of speech and thought?

My kid 4 is looking at RG unis and McGill in Canada - am I right in thinking Canada is looking like the sensible choice?

If you are worried about freedom of speech, especially on matters sex/gender, then McGill is perhaps not a good choice (Robert Wintemute was recently deplatformed there).

As for paying academics properly, don’t believe everything you hear from the academics’ union, UCU … though for sure, I would love a pay rise!

yes I saw that. Mind you at Edinburgh they have had a number of goes at showing a film which the trans lobby has deemed "anti trans" (it isn't, of course) so that problem seems to be universal.
I'm just wondering if the years of underinvestment in UK universities has reached a tipping point now. It feels a bit like it.

Lost me at 'raising domestic fees...' 🙄

Well I don’t know if that’s what they will have to do or the government provide a subsidy but they can’t just set them and leave them and expect unis to make up the slack. And I can’t see this govt handing out subsidies to universities. I would prefer that there were no fees, personally. but if there is no more money coming from domestic students they will be forced to take fewer and fewer Uk students and that doesn’t help our kids. How would you fund them?

You didn't lose me at raising domestic fees, but not a chance labour will do it. And I get why.

Properly subsiding all subjects (reversing the OfS caps from last year) and supporting universities to break their dependence on single foreign markets would be a good start.

I'm very worried. We'll likely lose a fair few post 92s and small specialists in the next few years. Might be what the market needs to stabilise but it's going to be tough.

Why?

Fees increasing is politically very very very unpalatable. However, there'll be an election next year, and I suspect w however gets in we're going to be dumped with some sort of student number control.

I think we probably have reached the peak of supply though. Unfortunately demand is still increasing.

There are several circles that cannot be squared, and I think the sector can only get worse tbh. It needs radical reform and I can't see any party doing that.

So that is why I am thinking my last DC, likely to have a gap year so start in 2025 for a 4 year course, who is dual nationality and pays local fees in Canada, might be better going to university there where they are all properly, albeit not lavishly, funded by the state. I just don't know what UK universities are going to look like in 2028/29. Is that unnecessarily gloomy thinking on my part?

In a way, the method by which 95% of UK kids fund university (by the student loan system) means that the level of fees doesn't really matter. Most will never pay them back and everyone seems to be happy to sign up to a 9% graduate tax for the entirety of their working lives. If you are never going to pay it back it really doesn't matter if the fees are £9250 or £11500 or £14000 per year.

The level of fees does matter. Both for the students in debt (even those who do not graduate) and all we taxpayers when the interest bloated debt is finally paid off by the government using our taxes to the private companies that buy the student loan debt from the government for less than 50p on the £.

It’s a massive black hole of debt headed our way which will only further cripple our weak economy. £20bn is loaned per year. By 2040, the outstanding debt will be £480bn most of which the taxpayer will pay when these debts are a written off. So, yes fees do matter.

What tuition fees does an overseas resident Canadian citizen pay at McGill?

Uk Unis, Honestly : I'm worried about my employment prospects. My institution is in crisis which means I can't get full time position. I'm not keen to move far (away from DC) to find a full time position. I applied for 2 anyway, not too far away, and didn't even get a "No thank you" response which has narked me about idea of applying THERE again. It's annoying. I am looking at local warehouse jobs to supplement my hours.

paying academics properly
we are well-paid imho (if I could get a full time position...)

raising domestic fees to restore the value lost by inflation
the sector underfunding (for research which is what I do, not teaching) wouldn't be fixed by that

dealing with freedom of speech and thought?
I don't encounter problems with either

But anti-immigrant sentiments & concentration of research funding into fewer institutions and trend Brexit undermining the country's economic potential and quality of public services, all that sucks and undermines the quality of UK tertiary education sector.

I just checked McGill and like most Universities, fees are set by residency not nationality. So your DC would not qualify for local Quebec fees, but pay international student fees.

Probably worth mentioning I suspect most of us here are from English institutions. There are other nations!

Sorry @MedSchoolRat

No that's not true. You haven't looked deeply enough into it, but it is complicated. You get Canadian fees if you are a Canadian citizen, irrespective of where in the world you live. If you live in Canada then where you live is relevant - those who are resident in Quebec pay less than those who live in other provinces/territories. If you are a Canadian living abroad, you are assessed depending on the province of your last residence in Canada. If you have never lived in Canada, but are a Canadian citizen, then you are deemed to become resident in Quebec on joining McGill and pay Quebec fees.

Another quirk is that if you are French you pay Rest-Of-Canada fees because Quebec wants to encourage new French-speakers and it hopes some Francophone graduates will stay.

All the Canadian fees are lower than UK fees.

@MedSchoolRat I'm sorry to hear that, that sounds frustrating and stressful.

So that is why I am thinking my last DC, likely to have a gap year so start in 2025 for a 4 year course, who is dual nationality and pays local fees in Canada, might be better going to university there where they are all properly, albeit not lavishly, funded by the state.

I think you are being a little naive about the state of the funding system in Canada. Colleagues and collaborators in Canada are also struggling with underfunding across research and education. As in the UK, Canadian universities rely on international students to subsidize loss making areas of the university. Salaries are higher, so in real terms the problems are not particularly better over in Canada.

Canada has some good universities but I am not sure why a student would choose one of their top universities over the genuinely global top universities in the UK such as Oxbridge, Imperial etc.

@acfree123 The Canadian funding problems don’t seem as acute but maybe because I am here not there. I accept oxbridge is a different matter and to some extent insulated from the problems by its wealth, but you don’t think McGill is a valid alternative to eg Edinburgh, Exeter, Manchester? She is looking at Arabic/ME studies, not STEM/Econ etc, so there are only a few possibilities in both countries.

Not sure about the general state of Canadian university funding, but only yesterday postgraduate students and researchers across Canada walked out to protest the lack of research funding: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canadian-academics-walk-out-1.6828424.

Also, university aside, how does your daughter feel about living in a French-speaking province? If she already knows French or would embrace the opportunity to learn, then it can be a bonus to be in Montreal. If she can get her French up to a decent level it would open the door to more job opportunities in Canada post-graduation. Or if she wants to come back to the UK it's never a bad thing to understand another language.

However, if she has no interest in learning French then I'm not sure Montreal is the best choice. Of course she'll be able to get by perfectly fine in everyday life, but it might limit her ability to get part time work, internships, etc.

She’s a linguist, speaks good Spanish (doing it for A level and going to get it fluent on her gap year), learning Arabic 3hrs/week off her own bat and with elementary French but happy to upskill it. I agree she will need to do so to work in Quebec. McGill offers free French language classes.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_universities_by_endowment
List of Canadian university endowments, with endowments over $1bn Canadian shown first.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_endowment
British university endowments.
Listed in millions because none have an endowment of £1bn.

British universities are far too reliant on government funding. They are very late to the game of securing donations and creating endowments.

That’s really interesting, thanks mathsanxiety. Yes that deepens my concern about Uk universities in the near future.

My son is just completeling a year abroad at a small liberal arts college in California connected with 5 other colleges on one big campus. One of the colleges has had a 5 year endowment drive which has raised $1 billion. In 5 years. He says if you ask for something as a student, they just give it to you. Different world.

How can Bath have an endowment of £7m? How?

It's in an HE sector which has historically been publicly financed. The UK does not have the tradition (or tax advantages) in relation to endowment that you find in the US. It's also a 60s university so early cohorts of students are only now reaching the age where they are likely to bequeath large amounts of money in their wills.