Unreasonable requests from students: Sense check

[LaChanticleer]

Just a place to moan really - in the last week, I have received the following requests from students:

• that I come down (2 floors) from my office to the entrance of our security locked building to let them in for a tutorial they had booked with me because they couldn't find their id card (you know -slide the id card in the card reader to gain entry to an unportered building)
  
  
• after sending out an email to my students in a module with a link in the email to my tutorial booking website and put in bolded letters "KEEP THIS EMAIL" and also putting the link in my email signature, several emails from students asking me to send them the link.
  
  I politely responded NO to all of these requests, but what I really wanted to say was:
  
  grow up
  you're an adult
  I am not your secretary
  
  AIBU as an academic? (btw, I'm a senior professor). Do these students realise that they're behaving quite rudely & unprofessionally?
  
  But beyond my own frustration at them treating me as if I'm their servant, just how do we prepare them for a workplace, where behaviour/requests like this would really land them in the shit? if they asked a senior colleague or maybe their boss, or someone who was funding them, they'd be given short shrift, and probably have a bit of a black mark against them ...

[user1497207191]

@LaChanticleer

Do these students realise that they're behaving quite rudely & unprofessionally?

Asking for a resend of an email link or access to a building really isn't rude nor unprofessional.

If it was the same people doing it regularly, then, yes, it's a problem, but even though you may think it's happening a lot, if it's always different people, rather than repeat offenders, it's not a big deal, wouldn't get them into trouble in a workplace etc.

Someone forgetting something or making a mistake, etc., as a one off really isn't a big problem in any setting.

You're presumably dealing with hundreds of people so it's inevitable some will forget things occasionally.

[user1497207191]

@TooManyPJs

To be fair though I meet plenty of fully fledged adults in the workplace who don't read emails properly.

Yes, indeed, I have clients who are "professionals", including solicitors, doctors, dentists, Uni professors, architects, etc. You'd be amazed at how many of them need their hand holding, spoon feeding, constant email reminders, etc. Of course, they use the excuse that they're so busy with work, but the principle remains that they, too, are just as likely to forget things!

[user1497207191]

@SarahAndQuack

Really, it wouldn't have occurred to you that it's rude to expect someone senior to you to open an email that you couldn't be bothered to write a subject title for? No one ever taught me that - I figured it out all in my own

Thing is that for today's students, email isn't their "normal" way of electronic communication. They're more used to texts, messaging (facebook, whatsapp, etc) where subject titles don't really exist as such. They just go straight into the text body.

[Lolamento]

I would send an e mail saying that they need to ensure to have their ID and keep track of the tutorial e mails. Set up boundaries or you will be become a doormat.

[Lolamento]

[quote user1497207191]@SarahAndQuack

Really, it wouldn't have occurred to you that it's rude to expect someone senior to you to open an email that you couldn't be bothered to write a subject title for? No one ever taught me that - I figured it out all in my own

Thing is that for today's students, email isn't their "normal" way of electronic communication. They're more used to texts, messaging (facebook, whatsapp, etc) where subject titles don't really exist as such. They just go straight into the text body.[/quote]
Sorry but this is not on. Shall we do what’s app lessons as they are not used to e mails. BS really!

[user1497207191]

@HardbackWriter

I do think that the more things shift online the higher expectations of constant availability become. I'm sure the last couple of years have hugely exacerbated that - I last worked as a lecturer in 2018 so haven't seen it first-hand. I've very much seen it for my secondary school teacher husband, too. I'm not sure that it's necessarily that his students have got more clueless, but just that asking him is an option that simply did not use to exist and now did. I think I thought my teachers slept in a cupboard at the school at the weekends when I was a teenager, it certainly never occurred to me that I could ask them about my homework on a Saturday evening (and nor could I have, unless I'd started looking them up in the phonebook).

I think the "constant availability" issue affects all walks of life, not just higher education.

I'm an accountant and never felt under so much pressure from clients who these days get stroppy when an email doesn't get a full reply within the working day, not just for simple things either, some expect almost instant lengthy reports which can easily take 2 or 3 hours to research and write.

Same with evening and weekend emails that clients expect replies to either in the weekend or evening, or at least by 9.15am the next working day.

It's pretty relentless these days in most professions.

[user1497207191]

@Lolamento

Sorry but this is not on. Shall we do what’s app lessons as they are not used to e mails. BS really!

The point is that no one has told them that it's apparently "rude" not to write a heading. That's all. If they don't think a title is necessary, then they don't know any different until it's pointed out to them. I don't think telepathy is on the National Curriculum! My point is that they're not as accustomed to sending/receiving emails as their cohorts would have been a few years ago! Simply pointing out that headings are a good idea is a lot more useful that getting into a strop about how "rude" it is when they don't!

[user1497207191]

@user1499609760

Like many here, I receive SO MANY emails about really trivial things that a look through the class moodle, department website, or even a quick Google would solve rapidly.

Whilst I agree that a lot of things can be solved with a bit of research, I also think the lack of consistency can also be a problem. I'm meaning where different lecturers/depts use different systems, i.e. some may use Moodle extensively, other depts/lecturers barely use it, sometimes it's out of date, etc., likewise with uni/departmental websites etc.

If a student finds that the online portal/moodle or whatever for their first few modules is out of date or not really used much, then that won't necessarily be the first place they look for information on their next batch of modules.

I do think there can be a lack of consistency between staff and between departments. It's no excuse for those who are just plain lazy, but can explain why some students get into the habit of looking in the wrong places and struggling to find the information.

[SarahAndQuack]

I think it's often quite odd for students to realise how non-standardised UK HE is. You see this on MN too - people assume that, like school, the same rules apply across all universities. Figuring out which things can safely be googled and which can't isn't as easy as all that. I've certainly had students who were really upset to discover that they'd been working off wrong information and I wish they'd just asked me.

[user1499609760]

[quote user1497207191]@user1499609760

Like many here, I receive SO MANY emails about really trivial things that a look through the class moodle, department website, or even a quick Google would solve rapidly.

Whilst I agree that a lot of things can be solved with a bit of research, I also think the lack of consistency can also be a problem. I'm meaning where different lecturers/depts use different systems, i.e. some may use Moodle extensively, other depts/lecturers barely use it, sometimes it's out of date, etc., likewise with uni/departmental websites etc.

If a student finds that the online portal/moodle or whatever for their first few modules is out of date or not really used much, then that won't necessarily be the first place they look for information on their next batch of modules.

I do think there can be a lack of consistency between staff and between departments. It's no excuse for those who are just plain lazy, but can explain why some students get into the habit of looking in the wrong places and struggling to find the information.[/quote]
That is a good point. We have made an effort in our department to try have answers some of the most common general queries all together in a ‘Student Handbook’, which takes a lot of work to put together each year as info changes, and which students are extensively linked to through emails, moodle etc. So to get emails about those issues is irritating. But I absolutely see how if Colleague X barely uses their moodle & the default is to email them (their patience must be greater than mine!), a student would think to do the same for me.

I do also think the issues around availability extend far beyond academia, to the PP who mentioned that, so we’re part of that wider change.

[ineedsun]

[quote user1497207191]@Lolamento

Sorry but this is not on. Shall we do what’s app lessons as they are not used to e mails. BS really!

The point is that no one has told them that it's apparently "rude" not to write a heading. That's all. If they don't think a title is necessary, then they don't know any different until it's pointed out to them. I don't think telepathy is on the National Curriculum! My point is that they're not as accustomed to sending/receiving emails as their cohorts would have been a few years ago! Simply pointing out that headings are a good idea is a lot more useful that getting into a strop about how "rude" it is when they don't![/quote]
Exactly this! We expect students to know office etiquette and how to manage an inbox / diary without any prior experience or education.

And every academic I know (bar one) is terrible at managing their emails and diary!

[dreamingbohemian]

I agree with all your points @user1497207191

Especially about students getting confused because not everyone does things the same way. Or because the Handbook says one thing but one of their other lecturers told them the opposite (some of my colleagues never read their emails either and have no clue when policies change).

Everything might make sense to those of us who have been working in this environment for years but it's not exactly transparent to students a lot of the time.

[dreamingbohemian]

This thread is also why I strongly believe that everyone should have to work a year waiting tables, working in customer service, or as a PA before going off to do whatever other job they want.

Because most of the things being whinged about here, as uniquely feckless student behaviour, are things that loads of people do all the time. If you work with the general public you learn very quickly that a good amount of people do not read or listen to instructions, do not try to understand anything on their own, and just generally have no clue.

This is why customers asked me what we had to drink when it's on the menu, why someone asks 'is this on sale' when there's an enormous ON SALE label on it. Why all the senior scholars I worked for were incapable of reading their own emails or keeping their own diaries.

And guess what, all those clueless people somehow managed to get jobs and live their lives and earn enough to go to restaurants and shops, even manage to rise to senior positions.

So this whole narrative of students being particularly dumb or thoughtless and oh no, how will they ever manage in the world, just sounds really ivory tower, honestly. They're just like everyone else and will probably manage fine in the end.

[SarahAndQuack]

I think you've slightly fallen into your own trap there, @dreamingbohemian!

Everyone whinges like this. It's not ivory tower, it's just people. While I was reading this thread my DP was sitting next to me whinging about the new starters at her job and how useless they are, how they don't know how to be polite, etc. etc. I bet if you went into any workplace in the country, you'd find the same thing.

[Twillow]

They're students, not employees. I would have thought it's your role to nurture the less organised ones a teeny bit? Lighten up and see them as human.

[Adatwistscientist]

Students definitely need more hand holding. There is a lack of will to think things through independently, and probably linked to consumer/nss. I know my assessment guides have gone from posing an essay question, to posing an essay question and providing a breakdown of what each paragraph should look at. I might as well do the essay myself but this is what we are told to do by management, and students complain at the whiff of any ambiguity.

I suspect the availability of information generally doesn't help though. When all info is posted on a pin board in the corridor you kind of knew where you stood. When you have email, teams, class WhatsApps, Moodle, discussion forums, padlets etc. Then there is so much info and so many in places to find it I don't blame many for just cutting to the chase and asking rather than fish around for 30 mins to find the right repository.

[user1497207191]

@Twillow

They're students, not employees. I would have thought it's your role to nurture the less organised ones a teeny bit? Lighten up and see them as human.

Due to student loans and tuition fees, they're actually customers now, rather than students or employees. Universities now have to compete and feedback, league tables, student satisfaction surveys, etc all have to be considered.

Many, if not most, organisations will bemoan their "customers" to some extent, but that's just part of the realities of the job these days.

Lots of people would love to have "perfect" customers (students), but that's not reality. Part of everyone's job, these days, is dealing with difficult "customers", for whatever reason, whatever the sector they work in.

The answer is to evaluate the "problems" and come up with solutions as to how to manage those problems. Berating the customer (student) is not necessarily the best outcome.

[user1497207191]

@Adatwistscientist

I suspect the availability of information generally doesn't help though. When all info is posted on a pin board in the corridor you kind of knew where you stood. When you have email, teams, class WhatsApps, Moodle, discussion forums, padlets etc. Then there is so much info and so many in places to find it I don't blame many for just cutting to the chase and asking rather than fish around for 30 mins to find the right repository.

Nail on the head. Everyone is bombarded with electronic communication these days, whether it's emails, texts, messaging apps, webpages, portals, etc. It's almost a full time job just to keep up with managing the "pings".

It was certainly a lot easier to stay on top of things in "ye olde days" when you had notice boards, notepads, etc.

But that's the same whether you're a student or employee, or whatever, even "life admin" has become a thing these days, and yes, "life admin" does take longer than it used to for the same reasons, i.e. multiple information sources, etc.

I do think it's a little unfair to blame students when adults are equally affected and can be just as bad at managing their work and home lives too!

Yes, students need to know how to manage their time, how to manage their electronic communication, manage their inboxes and workloads, etc., but that doesn't come naturally at whatever age you are and whether you're a student or a worker. It's not something that comes easily nor instinctively, and students, especially in their first couple of terms need to be given a bit of slack to learn how to manage their communications and workloads. It's like any new skill and they need to be nurtured and supported to do it, not "punished" when they get it wrong.

Obviously year 2 and 3 students are different and should have learned how to manage so deserve less leniency, but again, covid may have affected them badly, especially at Unis which were virtually fully online for a full year or more. Even something as simple as remembering to carry their ID card may have come hard to them at the start of year 2 if they literally never had cause to carry it around in year 1 because the teaching blocks and library were locked and they only left their flats to go shopping!

[awesomekilick]

It's the sense of entitlement that is galling. Yes people forget stuff or need stuff redoing for them, but most people used to be appreciative and grateful, back in the day. Now, it's as though what they have asked is perfectly reasonable and unexceptional. But it isn't! They asked for and got, you to go an extra mile, put yourself out, given them your time, energy, attention. For what? Not even a fulsome apology or appreciation. Makes me cross.

[EmmasMum12]

These young people pay your wages

Grow up

You're an adult

Stop living in the past

[SarahAndQuack]

@EmmasMum12

These young people pay your wages

Grow up

You're an adult

Stop living in the past

Of course they don't. Don't be so silly.

[titchy]

@EmmasMum12

These young people pay your wages

Grow up

You're an adult

Stop living in the past

Do you walk into your local A and E and demand to be seen straightaway as you pay their wages?

Do you phone your local police station and demand they investigate your car theft because you pay their wages?

FFS.

[SpinsForGin]

@EmmasMum12

These young people pay your wages

Grow up

You're an adult

Stop living in the past

No they don't.

[MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor]

@EmmasMum12

These young people pay your wages

Grow up

You're an adult

Stop living in the past

The past? Where young adults could actually manage to get things done without needing parents and lecturers to hold their hand. Being incapable is not something to aspire to. I can see where young people have been failed though.

[thevassal]

You seem so unreasonable and unsupportive! Have you never ever in your life forgot your keys or card or your pass or anything? It's a mistake, one that's easy to make and happened ONCE! What happened when you refused to come down, did the tutorial not take place? Thus wasting your time and theirs because you couldn't be arsed spending 30 seconds walking down some stairs.

Your point about the workplace is completely wrong - nearly every day in my office (before we went to wfh) someone would forget their pass to get in or would go to the loo without it and ring a colleague to go and get them and we didn't think twice about it...the only person who would have been judged would have been someone like you who refused to help, but I never once saw anyone do that!

So you're teaching them entirely the wrong skills.for a successful career if they think the "professional" way to behave is not to help out others and then moan about a minor mistake behind their backs.