Unreasonable requests from students: Sense check

[LaChanticleer]

Just a place to moan really - in the last week, I have received the following requests from students:

• that I come down (2 floors) from my office to the entrance of our security locked building to let them in for a tutorial they had booked with me because they couldn't find their id card (you know -slide the id card in the card reader to gain entry to an unportered building)
  
  
• after sending out an email to my students in a module with a link in the email to my tutorial booking website and put in bolded letters "KEEP THIS EMAIL" and also putting the link in my email signature, several emails from students asking me to send them the link.
  
  I politely responded NO to all of these requests, but what I really wanted to say was:
  
  grow up
  you're an adult
  I am not your secretary
  
  AIBU as an academic? (btw, I'm a senior professor). Do these students realise that they're behaving quite rudely & unprofessionally?
  
  But beyond my own frustration at them treating me as if I'm their servant, just how do we prepare them for a workplace, where behaviour/requests like this would really land them in the shit? if they asked a senior colleague or maybe their boss, or someone who was funding them, they'd be given short shrift, and probably have a bit of a black mark against them ...

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

I'm enjoying the irony of a thread about effective communication, laziness and good manners punctuated by posts replying to the first post and telling the OP how unreasonable she is, but clearly not bothering to read her updates first.

[LaChanticleer]

Oh well, we all do that at one time or another, I suppose @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I’m finding the attempts at telling me to grow up are particularly instructive

Maybe I should do an Executive Summary ?

[Abraxan]

If I forget my ID at work, I can buzz the main office and they let me in. Even if I need to go in and out several times a day, they will buzz me in.
This would not be a big deal at work.



If I missed a link in an email, then it wouldn't be a big deal.
I could email the person, or a colleague, and they'd resend it to me.
It would also be linked to in the work calendar, so I could easily access it that way. Infact, we get reminder emails with links in most weeks for various reasons, as most of our staff realise it's easy to miss one or press delete by accident.
Again, this would not be a big deal at my work.

[wherestheremotenow]

It must be hard to be so perfect all the time OP!

Seriously though are you saying you've never lost a pass or in a rush/panic not paid attention to the details in an email (title etc)?

Unless it's all the time they are very forgivable 'incidents' which happen all the time in different workplaces. I've worked in secure finance offices and I've worked civil service offices in the city - and people are human and forget passes sometimes -people get someone to sign them in - it's annoying for the person to come down but it happens occasionally- no big deal!

If it's the same students doing it all the time have you considered they may have executive function difficulties such as ADHD? Maybe try to be more forgiving in your view- maybe we can't all bloody function as well as you apparently. Perhaps they have strengths in other areas.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

... and still they come.

I wonder what the Venn diagram would be between people who reply to the OP in a thread of well over 200 messages without checking whether anyone else has said the same thing first, or whether the OP has expanded on her first post at all in the two days since first posting, and people who don't read their emails properly and lose links.

[dreamingbohemian]

I read all the OP's posts

I still think she's being unreasonable

Sneering at other people's reading comprehension skills is not the most persuasive argument

[reshetima]

Those of you who are sneering at the OP are missing the point: the lack of respect towards the role. Yes, it's human to forget a pass, or lose an email, but surely it would be sensible for the student to ask a friend, search for information in the first instance? If this happens to you at work do you immediately contact the most senior person in the organisation, or do you first look for a solution amongst your colleagues?

[ineedsun]

@reshetima

Those of you who are sneering at the OP are missing the point: the lack of respect towards the role. Yes, it's human to forget a pass, or lose an email, but surely it would be sensible for the student to ask a friend, search for information in the first instance? If this happens to you at work do you immediately contact the most senior person in the organisation, or do you first look for a solution amongst your colleagues?

They’re really not missing the point, they’re sneering because the first post implied that the OP is too senior to do something as menial as open the door to the person they’re meeting for an appointment or point someone in the direction of an email.

A senior professor isn’t the most senior person in the organisation but to be frank even if they were that doesn’t make them immune from being decent.

The later posts present a different view but the first one was why people are sneering.

[latetothefisting]

I have read all your posts (although perhaps if people didn't it's because you can't do 'see all' on the mobile app?)

1. your subsequent update adds loads of extra info (about admin staff not signing off your work in time etc.) that is a completely different topic than your original post. One is about colleagues failing to carry out their duties correctly and affecting both you and the institution they work for adversely and financially. Obviously that's a serious issue, and one you would be entitled to take up with higher staff. The other involves young people making one-off incredibly minor mistakes which has a minimal effect on you (you didn't even send them the email or let them into the building!) that you would sound ridiculous raising to a higher authority.
   
   
2. You've doubled down on your rationale for being annoyed as due to caring about your students' futures in the workplace, yet multiple people have told you that the minor issues that you think will be so disadvantageous would, in many (obviously not all) workplaces not even register as an issue. Forgetting your pass once or twice - normal. Not putting a subject heading in an email - fine. Being late - loads of places use flexitime so it's not an issue, and I've lost count of the number of times someone's sent a teams message saying they are still in the last meeting or have had an unexpected call and to carry on without them (and it's almost always the most senior and older staff rather than the younger ones!).
   
   @reshetima - If I forgot my pass I would think contacting the person I was due to meet with to ask them to let me in would be completely reasonable, no matter their seniority, much more so than bothering someone who wasn't nearby, or who I knew to be busy with something else (e.g. in a lecture), yes. But then I don't have (and haven't worked in places with) an archaic view about forelock tugging to seniority.
   Plus OP has also said that students aren't allowed to ask who you might deem to be 'less senior' staff to let them in, and also finds it annoying when other students leave her seminars to let their friends in, which does limit their options somewhat...

[reshetima]

@latetothefisting there's no need to be offend

[reshetima]

I think we're at cross purposes. No forelock tugging expected, just that students recognise that a better use of lecturer time would be made by trying to take initiative, sort things out for themselves.

Anyway. I don't think I'm going to win this argument. You stick with your prejudices. I'll stick with the knowledge that my students are more than grateful for my responsiveness within the boundaries of my available time. I'm quite sure they'd rather, like today, that I revise an urgent journal request we're co-authoring, then do their admin for them.

[ineedsun]

@reshetima

I think we're at cross purposes. No forelock tugging expected, just that students recognise that a better use of lecturer time would be made by trying to take initiative, sort things out for themselves.

Anyway. I don't think I'm going to win this argument. You stick with your prejudices. I'll stick with the knowledge that my students are more than grateful for my responsiveness within the boundaries of my available time. I'm quite sure they'd rather, like today, that I revise an urgent journal request we're co-authoring, then do their admin for them.

That’s hilarious, you can’t see beyond your own pre-conceived ideas so start with the insults.

[latetothefisting]

@reshetima

I think we're at cross purposes. No forelock tugging expected, just that students recognise that a better use of lecturer time would be made by trying to take initiative, sort things out for themselves.

Anyway. I don't think I'm going to win this argument. You stick with your prejudices. I'll stick with the knowledge that my students are more than grateful for my responsiveness within the boundaries of my available time. I'm quite sure they'd rather, like today, that I revise an urgent journal request we're co-authoring, then do their admin for them.

Well we were probably at cross-purposes from the time your question equated OP (and presumably you as a fellow academic ) as "the most senior person in your organisation!" while completely missing the point that in this scenario the student was asking them for the help because they were the most relevant person to assist, rather than their seniority.

If I had lost my pass or an email from a random colleague I wouldn't go first to the chief exec, no. But if I was due to meet the chief exec or they had been the one to initially send the information I needed, then contacting them to let me in/ask for it, rather than a random member of admin staff or a friend busy with their own work, wouldn't be unreasonable, and in every place I've worked in, if they refused to do so they would be the ones that would be judged as being up themselves and 'not a team player.'

Of course you are all very busy and important but surely pressing 'forward' on an email is as fast as pressing 'reply' and typing out 'No because I told you to save it earlier.' And certainly faster than then spending ages typing out long paragraphs on mumsnet complaining about it to people who have no ability to solve the issue. If you are so very busy.

In the same way spending 30 seconds walking down a flight of stairs to let the person you're meeting with into the place you are meeting, is surely less time consuming and inconvenient than refusing to do so and - what - (as OP hasn't explained what happened with the student) missing a whole appointment so the student has to rebook a new slot and take up another half hour slot of OPs precious time? Let the student go home to get their pass so their appointment then overruns and all the subsequent students are late?

[SodOffbacktoaibu]

Ohhh FFS...can everyone who stumbled in here from active just go back to AIBU for your ill informed arguments and leave people who know the reality of the job to have a grown up discussion?

Tedious beyond belief.

[loobylou10]

They pay your wages.

[LondonQueen]

You couldn't get your head much further up your arse if you tried...
You're a professor not the Queen of England!

[CovidCorvid]

Ok good example today.

Some of my students have been asking similar questions about an upcoming assignment. So I emailed them back and said I will put a document answering these questions on the module site under the assessments tab.

I put an announcement out on the module site saying there is more assessment guidance under the assessment tab. This was last week.

Today I had an email from someone saying she’s been loo and can’t find it. I panicked thinking I’d put it on the wrong module site but went and had a look and it’s there. 🤷‍♀️

So firstly she can’t have looked very hard, secondly she can have asked others in her cohort as I’m sure someone else would have been able to tell her where it was.

Anyway at a risk of making a rod for my own back I emailed her the document as it was actually quicker just to attach that than repeating where to find it! But as a more experienced colleague of mine once said doing that for them just enables helplessness!

[Marasme]

loving the name, @SodOffbacktoaibu

[SarahAndQuack]

@SodOffbacktoaibu

Ohhh FFS...can everyone who stumbled in here from active just go back to AIBU for your ill informed arguments and leave people who know the reality of the job to have a grown up discussion?

Tedious beyond belief.

Oh, come on, that is unfair!

Aside from the nonsense about students paying our wages, almost all the viewpoints on this thread have had at least one academic in agreement. It's really not a situation where you need to know the finer details of academic life to comment.

[Tabitha888]

You sound up your arse tbh. How about instead of being so difficult with them. Help them navigate and learn. Isn't that your job? Don't you remember what it's like being a student. There's so much happening, it's overwhelming. There going to make mistakes. Sounds like you have issues in other areas of your life where you feel that you are a servant. Don't take it out on them.

[SpinsForGin]

@loobylou10

They pay your wages.

No they don't

[SarahAndQuack]

@Tabitha888

You sound up your arse tbh. How about instead of being so difficult with them. Help them navigate and learn. Isn't that your job? Don't you remember what it's like being a student. There's so much happening, it's overwhelming. There going to make mistakes. Sounds like you have issues in other areas of your life where you feel that you are a servant. Don't take it out on them.

TBH, it probably isn't her job.

[boogiewithasuitcase]

@Tabitha888

You sound up your arse tbh. How about instead of being so difficult with them. Help them navigate and learn. Isn't that your job? Don't you remember what it's like being a student. There's so much happening, it's overwhelming. There going to make mistakes. Sounds like you have issues in other areas of your life where you feel that you are a servant. Don't take it out on them.

It isn't her job, and if she ends up doing all these extra hand holds for 80+ students, there will be no time left for her to actually do the marking, writing lectures, teaching, etc.

[ineedsun]

But you don’t do it for 80+ students in my experience. You might have a few who need more reminders on a regular basis but you just keep directing them back to what you’ve sent. The door example is ridiculous - just open the bloody door and stop moaning.

Some of these students might have additional learning needs and need reasonable adjustments, some might be having a bad day. Some might be so academic that they don’t have much in the way of practical or common sense - they’ll probably end up lecturing or doing research and then they’ll rely on colleagues for stuff like this 😂

[CovidCorvid]

There’s also well,documented research that students will make these sort of requests to female academics but not male academics.

The accumulative effect is that female academics bear the brunt of pastoral work while their male colleagues use this time for research work. Thus enabling the men to publish more and be more likely to be promoted.