UCU and F2F teaching

[Pota2]

I haven't seen a thread on this so I thought I would start one. What do people feel about this? I have a very low opinion of UCU so maybe my judgement is clouded by this but does anyone else feel that this sudden objection to F2F teaching which starts in 2 weeks is way too late and is being presented in a ridiculous way?

Instead of protecting its members, UCU have been busy sniping and infighting between their factions over the past few months and haven't really done much about the hundreds that have already lost their jobs. Now comes this announcement, months after they knew that most places were considering some degree of F2F and Jo Grady goes on TV saying that this will be like the care homes (err, despite the 0.0016 death rate for under 25s) and that it will cause 50,000 deaths (when one person died of covid yesterday and few people still obey lockdown rules). I just think it's for show and it paints our entire profession in a bad light by using unscientific nonsense.

I think that online teaching inevitably has issues. I don't feel that it's as good for the students as F2F and I think the fee issue is very real. Is it really fair to charge over £9,000 and then deliver some half-baked online stuff (I know lots of academics are boasting about how great their online teaching and how it's good value is but I've been in webinars with some of them and, um, it's not as great as they think)? And surely these issues will still be here in January (which is when UCU propose we go back? Closing campuses indefinitely is surely not an option if we still want jobs? I think UCU believes that the students are always on our side (like they did during the strike) but I think there will be real anger from students if institutions backtrack after they have already paid their rent deposits.

As I said, maybe my view is clouded by my feelings about the UCU and especially the members of the odious Grady4GS faction, so it would be interesting to hear other views. My institution is doing online lectures and the option for students between socially distanced F2F seminars and online ones. They are risk assessing staff for return to campus. Maybe I am wrong but this seems quite reasonable.

I agree dwnldft and certainly can’t fault the preparation at my university. Judging by the use of the re-opened library, some students really need access to resources or study spaces they don’t have at home. At risk staff and students are encouraged to work/study remotely and only a very small number of courses are being offered on-campus with strict guidelines on spacing, face coverings etc.

@TheEndisCummings well I can assure you that I am not being paid by anyone to say this! I wish I was... Twitter is a bit of an echo chamber too so you don’t necessarily get a range of views. By contrast, most academics at my university are in broad agreement with the plans (which are that all lectures are online and a small number of seminars are online with students always offered the option between the two). So by no means back to normal, but obviously not 100% online either. I am a younger academic but my colleagues include people over 60. I think their perspective also comes from the relatively horrendous experience of offering online seminars at the end of last academic year. Not a great experience and not one with much/any student engagement either I am afraid.

I am surprised that you’re so pleased with UCU response. What is the justification for not doing this 2 months ago? Why wait until plans are more or less in place for many places and students have often moved already or paid their deposits for rentals? Why fearmonger and use care homes as an analogy? I found that insulting. The claim that this will lead to 50,000 more deaths is ludicrous. There have been around 41,000 deaths in total in this country, the vast majority of them being elderly people. Death rate has now slowed to single figures and most businesses are open, many are using public transport and are socialising. Is the UCU’s vision that online only should continue indefinitely? Until there is a vaccine? When? Bear in mind that every year there are vaccine resistant strains of flu and mumps going round and no calls for shutdown.

As I said above, I am concerned about financial implications as well as impact on students. Just like the UCU is out of touch with members, the NUS is similarly out of touch with students. Their president also supported the strikes and most students didn’t, especially by the end. It is classist to assume that all students are in a position to learn from home. In many subjects, 100% online delivery gives an inferior learning experience. The OU spends a year developing and writing distance learning courses. The naivety of people with no experience of DL assuming that they have the skill and expertise to simply flip to completely online over the summer. Oh and those unis without a strong brand-name will struggle hugely and many will go under with catastrophic job losses and detrimental impacts on poorer areas where these institutions offer the only real chance of a university education for many school leavers.

As others have said, we are not returning to normal. We are not having large groups in lecture theatres. At my place we are having 10 students spaced out in a large room, some of whom may opt to do online delivery. Masks will be worn. Vulnerable staff have been risk assessed and will not be required to do F2F. I don’t see what’s ‘conservative’ about that.

I am not in favour of vulnerable staff going in! We have a risk assessment and if it is higher, then you don't do face to face, online is fine. I am concerned about students' mental health, I believe my children need to go back to school some of the time, and students at uni some of the time- in small groups, in managed ways, I am not in favour of cramming everyone into too small not properly ventilated rooms! Perhaps face to face contact is just once a week, to review with students how they are getting on with online learning. I think it's outrageous to get them all to return to universities, and then just tell them it's all online- they would, from a mental health point of view, be better off staying home supported by family and local friends in the main but of course that wouldn't produce income from halls...

I am open with my friends/colleagues about my own feelings about the union, my department (social science) is seemingly very enthusiastic about the union, but even those who are enthusiastic weren't enthusiastic about the third strike in a row with unclear aims. Most toed the line, a few got out on the picket lines, but lots either weren't in the union or carried on working for financial reasons. So, I know I'm not some crazy outlier, even in a seemingly highly unionized department.

To get over the uncertainty of the term, I'm planning for fully online delivery, and if I get any face to face opportunities, will use them to do learning support/additional activities/extra seminars, not to deliver core material. I don't trust that we will all be in for the whole term and I can't take the stress of thinking I'm doing lectures in a recorded room and then that not happen after week 4 or whatever. This is fairly easy for me though as I can record lectures or extended podcasts as I like to call them (they are not to be called lectures any more!) and build on the online materials I already have.

If actually no ftof is going to be offered, then universities should be honest with students about this, then students can decide where they'd like to learn online, instead of pretending they are going to deliver ftof and then actually not and making them pay to live somewhere when they could have (in many cases) stayed home with mum and dad. Rubbish for those who don't have secure/nice family homes from where to study, but then they can choose to travel to the university destination, again, knowing what's on offer.

Yes @Illdealwithitinaminute I am also recording my lectures. I will need to do some online seminars anyway for students who can’t come in so I guess I could switch to purely online if things change. I don’t like the uncertainty of it all.

I also totally agree with you about needing to be upfront with the students. Imagine moving to a new city where you know no one and then being forced to isolate. Would be awful. The problem is that universities are also dependent on the rental income from student accommodation. Without that, it’s undeniable that there will be many more job losses than have already taken place. This is why this is such a difficult issue and the UCU’s stance is a very blunt one that doesn’t give thought to the wider financial impact of 100% online. Ethically, online only should mean total accommodation refund to students. Realistically, this will be totally unsustainable for university finances and will mean staff lose their jobs in the middle of a recession. That’s why it’s not as simple as saying that we should all work online.

I saw an article a few weeks ago about how precarious the position is for many places. Reading and Nottingham are among two major universities that risk insolvency if they suffer a fall in income. There are some places that have large reserves but there are many more that don’t.

I have finally taken the plunge and resigned from UCU over this. (I probably wouldn't if this was the only issue, but memories of the disastrously managed strikes earlier this year and Grady's treatment of gender-critical academics still loomed large. If this makes me a conservative, so be it. Last time I checked, being a conservative was hardly a fringe, let alone illegal, political position in this country).

The problem I see with many progressive, UCU academic types is that their plans moving forward seem to be "let's do everything online forever". I'm sure that would suit many of them, not having to get ready in the morning and commute and all - until students realize that OU is a cheaper and better option for distance learning and they all transfer there and jobs at traditional universities start to disappear that is. There is by now evidence that lockdown has had a non-negligible impact on young people's mental health, and I wonder whether the UCU leadership - who claim to care oh so much about mental health - have given any thought as to what the effects might be for young people of living their lives on Zoom for several more months or perhaps a year.

I wish the UCU leadership would focus their efforts on making sure no one is forced to teach face to face if they fear for their health, instead of mindlessly scaremongering. I cannot understand why universities (in collaboration with UCU branches) cannot first ascertain whether f2f teaching is possible at all (depending on local incidence, typology of teaching spaces, etc.), and then leave the decision with academics whether they wish to teach face to face or not according to their personal risk assessment.* My own institution kind of does this and I have requested to do as much f2f teaching as practicable; I am fully aware of the risks and how can I mitigate them, and I cannot help but thinking that the UCU here is trying to protect me from myself, which is very patronizing.

• Of course, online alternatives should be available too for students unable or unwilling to attend f2f classes.

What I find strange is that all the rhetoric has changed.

The university were banging on and on about contact time for years, we need more contact time, students need contact time, we all increased (padded out) our lectures, more office hours, more contact bloody time- now it's 1 hour a week face to face if they are lucky! Even the amount of online contact time seems to have gone out the window.

Similarly, the unions were extremely concerned about online teaching and videoing lectures- we don't want to be replaced was the thing. If we just allow ourselves to be videoed, then that's the property of the university and we are just making ourselves redundant. Now the unions themselves are pushing for two weeks online teaching minimum, who knows about the rest of the term? I believe some people are at more risk, and we should all be covering for them, but others (esp my middle-aged colleagues without kids who live in the middle of nowhere) have discovered working from home is rather nice, you get lots of writing done and I don't think they are motivated to go back at all. Worryingly for all of us.

@aridapricot I totally agree with everything you say. It’s going to have a huge impact on student mental health if the campuses are closed. It will also affect staff members who live on their own too. It’s interesting that that’s now dismissed or brushed under the carpet. Well done for taking the plunge and leaving UCU too. It’s just one thing after another with this lot and almost everything they have done over the past year has convinced me that they don’t have their members’ interests at heart.

I also agree with you @Illdealwithitinaminute that suddenly it seems we don’t need face to face and suddenly we’re all whizzes at online learning (we’re really really not) and the students will get a great learning experience from their bedrooms hundreds of miles away from campus (they won’t).

The thing is, Covid won’t be the last virus hitting us. There could be another pandemic of something else in 5 years time. This is a part of life now and we can’t simply shut down everything because we fear we will get ill. We did that during the peak of the pandemic but it cannot go on indefinitely. While lecturers can work from home, what about the security guards, cleaners, shop-workers and maintenance staff who will be made redundant if this continues? Should their livelihoods just be collateral damage in all this? In many areas, the local universities are the biggest employers. The effect will be absolutely devastating if we shut.

I think this is a problem with separate unions for academics and other staff. UCU consistently shows no concern for how their actions detrimentally impact others at our institutions. We can also see this from the front runner in the VP elections (who is expressly backed by the GS in yet another wildly inappropriate move from her). He suggests that we all boycott the catering outlets on campus (and hand out samosas in UCU branded bags instead). The effect will probably be a shrug of the shoulders from management but job losses for catering staff. However, the Grady4GS faction doesn’t see this because they don’t and never have cared about non-academic staff. Tbh they don’t really care about precarious workers either - it’s about the USS pension for them - but they make a half-hearted attempt through the 4 fights because it will increase the numbers of striking staff.

@Pota2 and @Illdealwithitinaminute: Yes, this whole thing of "everything we claimed to care so much about doesn't really matter anymore" is one of the things I've found most annoying in the last several months (outside academic too, but that's another matter).

Yes there's a pandemic but it doesn't mean everything else is put on hold.

At my place we've been asking the university to build new teaching/research/social spaces for my school for several years now. The argument always goes that having a building of our own (as opposed to a collection of disparate buildings and classrooms) will bring us closer together, ensure we all interact in informal ways that can eventually lead to more solid relationships, help us develop a stronger identity as a school that will ultimately be beneficial for our teaching and research, etc. Now almost everyone insists that online is perfectly good and waxes lyrical about all the fancy stuff you can do on Zoom and Moodle to keep students "engaged" and build a "community".

I imagine that in one or two years time when we go back to senior management to ask for a new building we'll be duly reminded that we said online is perfectly good and so why do we need any physical spaces at all...

I think the universities are absolutely deluded about what it takes to prepare an online course and teach online. I have luckily been doing a lot of online back up stuff for years, so have my recordings/videos of lectures, and have everything heavily structured so it's fairly easy to move online. Our work recommended everyone do 'podcasts' of 10 min at a time- instead of lectures. Or flip the classroom and find other content. I don't think they actually know how to create great video/podcasts and realise the OU doesn't just plop inexperienced teachers in front of a camera. Or that flipping usually involves the students preparing (with what if they only have a 10 min podcast to go off) and then engaging in discussion in the face to face time- it's really hard to do that level of discussion online with all the turn-taking, bad connections and lack of flow.

Pretty grim prediction feom Official SAGE:

twitter.com/whazell/status/1301914935690227713?s=19

"If we had some good news earlier about apparently low threat of transmission in primary schools, we now have some bad news about universities. SAGE has said there's a “significant risk” that universities could "amplify" transmission of Covid. “Large outbreaks are possible over a time period of weeks, so could peak towards the end of the term”. This would “coincide with the Christmas and New Year period posing a significant risk to both extended families and local communities”... SAGE seems to raise possibility of something like a national university lockdown in November: “It may be necessary for institutions across the higher education sector to take coordinated action in November to prevent seeding and disseminated outbreaks in December.”

@Bingobango69 there are risks for sure and nobody is denying that. However, if campuses do not open, universities will lose millions in rental income and job losses will ensue. That is a virtual certainty. There will also be job losses for many non-academic staff who will now no longer be needed. I would imagine that the risk that is there now will still be there in January and indeed until such time that a vaccine is developed. Universities cannot survive that long with a drop in income. It’s a choice that has difficult consequences either way but to my mind the balance is tipped in favour of opening with protective measures in place for vulnerable staff.

I also don’t quite understand why universities are deemed to be such a risk when schools are not. Students are adults who will follow stringent social distancing measures put in place on campus. That will be much harder in schools. Yes, there will be a geographical move at the beginning of the semester which may cause an initial spike but I don’t think it will be as catastrophic as predicted. Remember that there were predictions of half a million deaths during the first wave of the pandemic and that prediction was way out, despite the rubbish and delayed government response and lockdown.

Also we need to be extremely careful of telling management that our jobs can be done perfectly well online. Do you not think that will be capitalised upon? If students declare themselves willing to learn online and lecturers argue that this is the ideal mode of delivery, what’s to stop many courses moving online on a more permanent basis?

I saw the care homes comment and thought it was crass. Someone on another thread said a more appropriate comparison is Cheltenham.

I think there is serious risk of university outbreaks driving community transmission and therefore local lockdowns.

The Christmas seeding issue identified by SAGE is also very concerning. Testing is already creaking at the seams.

In all I didn't think the issue shouldn't have been raised, I did think the choice of words was odd.

I also don’t quite understand why universities are deemed to be such a risk when schools are not.

Perhaps the real question is why schools are apparently not an issue when it is acknowledged that universities are?

This twitter thread is very good and explains why closing campuses is likely to be worse than proceeding with current plans:

twitter.com/DrLeeJones/status/1300119555277287427?s=20

Nobody disputes that there is a risk. There is of course a risk. The question is whether the risk justifies the action being proposed. Just as we all often engage in potentially risky conduct but we deem the risk to be one worth taking (driving, flying, playing certain sports etc).

@Pota2

This twitter thread is very good and explains why closing campuses is likely to be worse than proceeding with current plans:

twitter.com/DrLeeJones/status/1300119555277287427?s=20

Nobody disputes that there is a risk. There is of course a risk. The question is whether the risk justifies the action being proposed. Just as we all often engage in potentially risky conduct but we deem the risk to be one worth taking (driving, flying, playing certain sports etc).

Except we don't 'all' engage in those things, we 'each' choose whether or not to engage in those things.

Well, if you are medically classed as vulnerable, you should be allowed to work from home of course. But the virus poses very little risk to the vast majority of people who study at and work in universities. There are other infectious diseases doing the rounds every year but never has there been a suggestion that we totally shut down institutions as a result. And I guess there is a ‘choice’ here too in that people who deem their jobs too dangerous to perform could resign from them, just as those who feel that travelling in any form of motor vehicle is too dangerous could choose to never leave their local area. Going to extreme lengths to protect predominantly young and healthy people from getting a virus that is unlikely to seriously affect them when it means those people are likely to suffer significant disadvantages (including MH issues and job losses) doesn’t seem at all sensible to me.

I mean if UCU gets its way on this, it’s goodbye to academia for many of us. I don’t personally fancy losing my job in the middle of a recession. Many institutions will go under altogether. Is it worth it?

Going to extreme lengths to protect predominantly young and healthy people from getting a virus that is unlikely to seriously affect them

I think if lots of students take it home to parents and grandparents, it would affect them pretty badly.

You are only looking at Covid as in the direct health impact on students as individuals. Not academics, campus/accomm staff, wider community, parents or grandparents.

Few students live with their grandparents. Relatively few students have elderly parents. Presumably if they have vulnerable family members they can take precautions before returning home. Plus it’s hardly like young people have all been staying home to date. The police in my local area have broken up numerous large raves, which presumably also put the parents and grandparents of those attending at risk.

I have said all along that vulnerable staff should not be required to attend campus. Yes, I may catch Covid at work just as I may catch it at the supermarket or a cafe or all the other places people now go again. But all previous years, I could have caught flu every winter or any other viruses going round, some of which are vaccine resistant and also have a potentially devastating effect on the vulnerable and very elderly. Why is Covid 19 so deserving of a complete shutdown when there were mumps cases going round last year (that were infecting people who had had the MMR)?

None of the people on this thread arguing for online only have commented on the job losses that will happen if campuses stay closed. Are you just hoping it won’t be you? Because it will be someone, I can guarantee you that.

Ultimately once you invoke the 'what about flu' argument, there's nothing much to say. Covid and flu are different. They are different for university staff, for students, for students' families and for society.

I'm not at all blind to the economic/job risks we all face. But I don't see how an outbreak helps that.

And I don’t think ‘they’re just different’ is a very convincing argument either. Our future may well be filled with pandemics of other viruses that we don’t have vaccines for. It’s not something we can predict or prevent. We have to learn to adapt our life to this reality rather than live in some vain belief that we can totally eliminate the threat.

Sadly I think too many in this sector have a feeling that they are special and therefore should have special protections (despite claiming to be chiefly concerned about the local community). For instance, I would have thought airport workers and transport workers are at far far greater risk, yet they are not given the option of not working. Nor is any other sector that is usually public facing. There is of course an initial risk of a spike when students first move. After that, it will doubtless subside given that sensible social distancing rules will be followed. Teaching usually finishes at least a couple of weeks before Christmas (or could do) so students could be urged to take precautions and self-isolate before returning home to avoid infecting family members. A single move is much safer than where people come into constant repeated contact with new people (eg transport workers or NHS workers).

Hopefully universities will ignore this blatant attempt to stir up panic and we will see that this is a risk that can be adequately managed. If we lose our jobs over this, the effects will be far far more catastrophic and long-lasting than a university outbreak could ever be.

@Pota2 you see to harbour a lot of contempt for academics. There is no law of nature that closes campuses. Like the banks in 2008, decisions can be made to shore up sectors if the will of need is there. Not that I imagine this govt saving them, of course, but the way you write has such an edge of 'suck it up'. There is something odd with your tone to me and you sound like no academic I know.

I also agree the tone of this thread is a bit strange and unnecessarily combative.

There's no reasoning with someone who invokes the 'what about flu' line. There is a mountain of research into why Covid is completely different both for an individual and for society.

Yes there may be future pandemics but let's just focus on this one for now!

Surely outbreaks linked to universities around Christmas are hardly going to enhance recruitment efforts for 2021 intake.

There are some heartbreaking testimonies emerging among academics, though of course not only them, on long covid and organ damage and long term effects, including amongst those who were asymptomatic. I think we are stupid if we are rash.

@TheEndisCummings I don’t know what you’re trying to imply by that. Is that another suggestion that I’m ‘being paid’ to write my posts just because I have a different opinion to you? Do you want to see my phd certificate or my staff card or something? I can assure you that I am an academic even if I don’t sound like those you know.

I do actually feel quite out of place in academia though, perhaps because I had a significantly less privileged upbringing than many others I have encountered here. The thing that has made me feel particularly alienated is the new trend towards refusing to tolerate different viewpoints and trying to destroy people’s careers if they dare to have a different opinion. So in a way I am not that surprised that you can sense my resentment towards academia (although I also work with some wonderful people) and the bit I am resentful about is embodied by the new UCU leadership. I also know I am not the only one who feels as I do but, like most, I keep my head down because I have seen the repercussions for those who dare to disagree with the dominant view.

Anyway, I think I have said enough on the subject and I will hide this thread now. I don’t think it’s worth risking jobs for and I think it will do far more damage to the sector than a virus ever could. Having watched my family having to go to work in a range of industries throughout the lockdown I have been aware of my privilege of being able to work from home over the summer. Others don’t have that opportunity and I don’t think that my need to continue to be protected should come at the price of massive job losses and student MH issues. 🤷‍♀️