Do you feel valued? Does it matter? Is it ever possible?!

[Hedgehoghogger]

And if you do who by?

I'm reader level, relatively young (34), non RG but red brick institution. On paper high achiever. I bring in money, have lots of PhD students, international reputation, 4 papers, books, 4 impact, lots of public engagement, regularly cited in policy blah blah blah ... whilst also running a course, teaching, personal students etc.

The problem is I am not valued by management. Nasty rejection letter for promotion listing all my faults but no positives, no positive feedback, control of ideas handed to other staff ... alongside the typical continually being told need to do more (and then more... and then a bit more thanks. Although no actual thanks obviously).

We have also had somewhat of a shift to valuing teaching over research, with teaching staff (no PhD) getting lots of promotions to be on the same scale - so we now have lots of readers and professors who have never done any research. Teaching of course very valuable but I resent having to do a similar teaching load and then the research as well, and whereas the research staff struggled to get to that grade, others can be promoted on their teaching only meaning research staff are being held back as they can't meet the grade on their research. It's just a miserable situation to be in. Of course, teaching staff most likely feel we are valued.

So I'm miserable and having my yearly 'should I move / commute' debate. Difficult to actually move as school age children and divorced so considering a long commute for an agreement of 2 - 3 days in the office during term time arrangement.

But then I think would I just be miserable elsewhere too? Is everyone feeling this way? Does anyone feel valued by management (and do you have any vacancies ). Does anyone else manage to feel valued their students and from their research and think sod management? How do you get to thinking that way? Or is HE as a sector doomed with the introduction of TEF and needing to do it all amazingly? What else is there for an academic to do?! Apart from buy lottery tickets (but even then would we actually be happy).

I'm finding myself withdrawing and not bothering to try and progress, thinking I could just go for the 'easier' life of staying here (house 10 minutes drive away). But ...

Sounds hard. I feel valued by my students, but not by management. I don't see that changing either as the quota culture expands and sexism remains entrenched. I'm more senior than you and my main advice is to build up a supportive circle of colleagues who get it. My women friends have been my salvation. Oh and learn to say no!

If it were me, I'd move. You sound like you're doing all the right things and then some. Not all institutions are as you describe – mine isn't; so you should have a careful poke around and ask people how they find their institutional culture.

But bear in mind that you may have trouble moving because you're already a Reader (at a very young age too; I got my first job as a Lecturer at 31). That makes you expensive, and there are much fewer jobs advertised above junior posts.

You may have to compromise on your position - a willingness to take a Senior Lecturer (or even, temporarily, Lecturer) job at whatever departments are top of the food chain in your field, or a willingness to take a Professorship at a so-called "less good" institution.

The other thing to do is apply for a big grant that will buy you out of your teaching for a while, and also make you very attractive to other institutions that you may like to move to. There's a market in new ERC awardees, for example - I know numerous examples of people who have got an ERC grant and used that to move. Pretty much anyone (including Oxbridge in three cases I know of) will take you then.

And yy to @20nil - learn to say no to absolutely everything extra that your department suggests (at least that you possibly can); but this extends to external stuff too. At this point, you don't have to go to conferences, you can be selective in peer reviewing, you can timetable your personal tutoring so that it is time effective, and so forth.

This is excellent advice for any woman academic, from a woman of colour, of how to say no with grace, and advance the cause of other women in the field as well.

I am less senior than you and in a RG University where I also run a programme, do research and teach and no I definitely don't feel valued. I did when I was a research fellow but was forced to change track to lecturing. I now have a huge teaching and admin role and I am getting slammed for my lack of research (well I'd be doing it if I didn't keep getting more and more teaching piled on). It's not just me, readers and profs feel the same and frankly if they feel the same then there's no hope for me going forward. I'd hoped that there'd be a point where you were valued and less stressed and I don't think there is any more. I've toyed with the idea of going teaching focussed just to relieve some of the pressure and get promoted that way but teaching staff are valued even less and actually I love research, when I get to do it. I suspect I'll leave academia this year. It used to be my dream job but no more alas.

I'm in the same position as you re divorce and small children and worry that a job change would mean I lose my much needed flexibility (and what the hell would I do anyway?). I think at your level I'd suck it up for the salary and the flexibility as long as your immediate line management appreciates you.

Thanks for that great link PP. I'm going to share it with friends.

PP - thank you. Great link. I got a good grant that was meant to buy me out of everything and it never really happened . That was in the day before I had lots of PhD students though. That link is brilliant though and I need to practice!

Inky - thank you. That's my fear - a 9 -5 post! When in reality we work much more. There is that saying 'academia - choosing which 80 hours a week you work flexibly. Sigh.

And 20 - good plan. Diminishing numbers of research academics here which is tough. Everyone is withdrawing and grumpy.

Chuckling at this part in the article

"I received your invitation to review ‘Boring Manuscript’ for Obscure Journal'

May I ask... is a research associate an academic in this MN section? All the posters here seem to be Faculty -- teaching undergraduates and able to be PIs. I do research in a Uni but I won't ever teach or be a PI or be a research fellow. Thanks.

There are some researchers and PhD students here . I say if you identify as an academic (and are involved in its crazy culture!) then you're an academic !

It's kind of nice to know there's somewhere teaching is appreciated, because it isn't at my institution, and having seen the TEF measures, I don't think it will be as it's mainly NSS (which you don't need to promote a whole load of teaching profs to achieve) and employability which is not driven by teaching disciplinary modules well anyway.

Not that that helps you!

I have felt very underappreciated and fed up many times in my career, and wondered if I am suffering from the female bar raise syndrome whereby as females go forward for promotion, the bar is then raised really high and you fail. I know promotion in my institution is gender biased and several men with less than me in terms of research/grants have gone through, but there's always some trick/rule/way in which it is explained (as well as hidden) that makes it very difficult to prove. I don't want to get the lawyers in, so there it is.

In your situation, I'd be assessing several things a) is anything impeding you from the type of research you want? if not, this is a valuable thing, many of my colleagues are now on even senior posts expected to bring in a certain amount of grant income, and if you are doing very well and in areas you personally like, then this is something good that you may not get elsewhere b) you could shift but I wouldn't personally want to commute with small kids, not even 2/3 days a week term-time but I'm a wuss, I hated commuting and it really affected my ability to produce work c) I would be asking for very clear directives on what I need to do to get promoted, not just a list of criticisms- so exactly how many/what type journal articles/grants/impact case study etc are needed and what is the time-scale they see this happening, so they know you aren't going to go away.

I'm sure it's tempting to go elsewhere, and when REF stuff was portable, I know lots jumped ship just before the filing deadline, but this time is different, so it depends how in demand profs are in your subject/in your location whether you want to try for a move.

My response to being underappreciated is also not to work in a crazy way for the uni- I do what's required for the job, and that's that, no extras now, and am less collegiate than I used to be, as they really don't promote my welfare and would get rid of me if they had to, so I look at it as a straightforward trade: money for my expertise and energy and make sure I don't give too much these days.

Summer - I feel like you are me! As for NSS the same old cliches play out with the male doesn't do much but is liked by the young female students getting the accolades. Sigh. It feels like when we push students they will complain, but those who give an easy ride get the praise. It is SO screwed up.

'but there's always some trick/rule/way in which it is explained (as well as hidden) that makes it very difficult to prove'

Yes! And when you enquire you get yelled at and kind of give up.

'My response to being underappreciated is also not to work in a crazy way for the uni- I do what's required for the job, and that's that, no extras now, and am less collegiate than I used to be, as they really don't promote my welfare and would get rid of me if they had to, so I look at it as a straightforward trade: money for my expertise and energy and make sure I don't give too much these days.'

And this is where I'm at. But feel so torn at. It's not me - I used to be so motivated and now I'm 'meh'. I used to look at colleagues who have always been 'meh' and wonder why they didn't enjoy it and now I know. Sad isn't it. So I've been trying to be meh and not care. But it's slowly destroying me. Maybe I need counselling to learn not to care!

Someone else (working outside universities) called me an academic. I don't think I do identify with that word, actually, it was a new word for me. But thanks for reply.

I can say I feel very appreciated by my PIs. it doesn't sound like similar concerns to this thread, though.

I think the feelings you describe are very common amongst academics at all levels.

I agree with pp that you may well be under-estimating the positives of your situation - e.g. pretty much nobody is a reader at 34 in my institution, even with a large ERC or other grant under their belt.

Also bear in mind that there is politics and sexism everywhere - in HE and outside. What you are describing about lower qualified people being pushed to the same or higher levels as you is very common - it is often about who your friends are, not what you are actually achieving. Moving elsewhere will not necessarily solve your problem.

The best advice I have ever had came from somebody who was themselves being poorly treated (woman in very male HE environment): prioritise what you want to do and what you enjoy doing, learn to say no to things that aren't valued and you don't enjoy, mentally decouple from the politics in your institution, step aside from departmental politics and never forget that the problem is not with you but with the institution, don't let bad work behaviour impact upon your personal life. This advice has worked very well for me in a number of hostile HE environments.

'mentally decouple from the politics in your institution, step aside from departmental politics and never forget that the problem is not with you but with the institution, don't let bad work behaviour impact upon your personal life.'

this ... but how. Anyone done anything that has helped them not care?

I have a local, well paid, kind of flexible job, travelling lots with the freedom to sort of research what I want. But I still focus on the value. Of people I don't really care about (!).

I think there's a difference though between feeling underappreciated by the uni/management and in my field in general/client group my research serves. I feel motivated and interested in my field and like it has a bigger purpose, if you like, and your work also has policy relevance so perhaps you are the same. I don't work as hard for the uni as I have learned that they simply do what they want in terms of money, hiring, status etc, and so it's important for me to conserve energy and not spend it sitting on their committees, attending events I don't need to, and so on, but I do put a lot into my own career and field, or as much as I am able anyway!

I am not you as I am a decade older, a rung below on the ladder, and don't have any 4* publications this time around (yet)! You are clearly a great academic but definitely underappreciated. In this circumstance, I say- does being here work for me and my family right now? If the answer is yes, the commute suits us, the salary is good enough, the work is fulfilling, then that's good enough for me as long as the path to the next step (for you prof) is clear. If they can't make that happen in a reasonable time-frame, then you can move in a few years. There are lots of reasons though, why people don't end up prof quite as quickly as they had hoped and I do know people who moved, then our institution suddenly promoted a load, they haven't got there yet, these things are not always completely predictable.

I think one of my issues is a naive / straightforward belief that academic rungs are symbols of success and achievement. I need to decouple hugely from the system.

I am exceedingly lucky in that my research has gained me a reputation externally that brings me significant reward - both emotionally in terms of knowing I have helped people and financially though extensive travel to lovely places overseas. I SHOULD be so happy. But then I get the train / plane back from feeling I am achieving and valued ... step through the uni door and bang... reminded I am rubbish / not good enough etc.

Some days I think I am a threat to them. Other days I think I am a crazy narcissistic fool for thinking that.

I also openly challenge management (which we all know is the best way not to get promoted) but refuse to let things go, especially when they are misogynistic or I see others unfairly treated. I could toe the line and get promoted on less achievements but sod that.

But Hedge- you are a Reader at 34 and presumably were going for full professorship? So, hardly a failure, or not good enough at all. At our institution, you have to be internationally important to be a Reader these days, and it's only by sustaining that over time/building a decent research group that you make Prof, and so it may just be a time thing.

Plus- once you are a Prof by your late thirties- what then? There's no more obvious steps on the ladder- or will that external validation be enough for 25 plus years?! Or are you hoping to step into uni administration, where you'll be dishing this stuff out to others?

I am not trying to say you shouldn't care, or indeed that you should put up with unequal treatment, but are there really lots of male profs aged under 34 at your institution? There aren't at mine (Russell group but only just).

I think you have to slightly detach from the current managerial style of most universities as it is madness. I'm sure there are good dept's and bad ones, but my feeling is nowhere is safe from the bureaucracy, measurement and trying to keep costs down by not promoting, it also very much depends where your institution is in this cycle, so to some extent it is luck- you might move somewhere which looks very generous just as they pull up the drawbridge on promotions. My institution has changed dramatically in this regard in the past few years, and become leaner/meaner, but it still has a lot of readers/profs which are expensive for them.

I know I'm not useless really ... they just tell me I am at every opportunity. Feedback on the promotion was that I was failing at everything even though actually by their own definitions and criteria (they do like their indicators) I was overachieving what was required of prof. Not one single positive word was given and it was suggested I needn't bother applying for another 10 years. It's learning not to care about that when I have eager to please syndrome.

And yes you are completely right on the 'then what' which is why I am thinking it might just be me and I need to toughen up. I certainly do not want to be management shudder .

There must be a book on Amazon I can buy right?

you are a Reader at 34 and presumably were going for full professorship? So, hardly a failure, or not good enough at all

Indeed. You have to be realistic.

Even with the record you describe, you just wouldn't become a professor in my institution at 34 - because people with comparable records are coming in at that age as lecturers/senior lecturers.

I honestly cannot imagine anyone becoming a professor at 34 in my area without the equivalent of a Nobel Prize (in which case they probably wouldn't stay in the UK). At 34 (and with maternity leaves for children) you simply cannot have met all the criteria imposed by my institution for professorships in terms of numbers of PhD students, grant income, editorships of journals, line management of a number of early career researchers, held a range of senior admin jobs in the department etc.

I get that criteria for professorships vary between institutions and fields but your institution is unlikely to think it's urgent to promote you at 34 unless you come in with an offer from elsewhere. (And even then they might well say, take the offer from elsewhere.) It would be pretty unusual to get an offer of a professorship at 34 from anywhere.

BTW I was offered a professorship at 36 (following a prize). This was considered absolutely exceptional by the institution involved and several of the committee were adamant that I was far too young to be offered such a position.

Which is ageist...

This is a big issue.

And amazing ! Well done!

I actually don't think it's ageist: promotion is criteria based in my institution. The points you name in your OP are not sufficient for promotion to professorship as many of our lecturers/readers already fulfil these. For a professorship you would need to demonstrate a lot more, a wide range of experience and leadership, over a period of years.

This doesn't mean that your promotions procedures are fair or that the same criteria are being applied to everybody (gender bias is a big issue, as are cliques) but I would be surprised if you would get many professorship offers in UK institutions. If you think that your circumstances are special, then by all means try applying to see what you can get.

(I would say that my institution and comparable institutions would be very unlikely to agree to a 2-3 days in the office position at professor level, though. This would be virtually impossible just in terms of teaching and admin tasks, let alone anything else.)

Is your current institution the same one which promoted you to the level of Reader?
Then surely they must appreciate/value you (or did you threaten to go elsewhere)?

Maybe you could kill two birds with one stone by applying for jobs at other institutions (and then using an offer as leverage to get a promotion where you are; if they don't offer a promotion, then move jobs).

That's the way the corporate world works (and as we know HE is now part of that world). An institution only values you for what it can get out of you.

But as others have said, you are doing remarkably well by the sounds of it.

It's not the title, it's the attitude if that makes sense. I don't fit where I am. I'm not applying for professor / chair elsewhere - and am looking at SL as it's the same salary in other institutions.

The issue is exceeding targets yet feeling crap. Without being too identifying, we have very specific criteria that determine the level a chair is at (e.g. these specific roles, this amount of 4* papers, over this amount of funding). I exceed them. Trying not to be identifiable again, in a case where my performance was reviewed by a different related department it was queried why I wasn't chair as was achieving it.

However I fully recognise that in other institutions it would be higher hence the SL applications.

I think your point about value is very true. As academics (as I guess other careers do too) we become the job, there isn't really much separation. So then perhaps place value higher. I need to learn not to need that value!

I got a good grant that was meant to buy me out of everything and it never really happened Then your institution is definitely one of the bad ones and, at some point, you should think about moving.

@user7214743615 prioritise what you want to do and what you enjoy doing, learn to say no to things that aren't valued and you don't enjoy, mentally decouple from the politics in your institution, step aside from departmental politics and never forget that the problem is not with you but with the institution, don't let bad work behaviour impact upon your personal life. That is outstanding advice. I'm going to file that somewhere.

My rule of thumb (after being burnt too many times to count, thankfully not in my current place so far) is this:

Institutions will never love you back.