Anyone want a general chat?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

By which title I mean, of course, that I am procrastinating and if I can't rise above it I'd love to drag you all down with me.

What are we all doing this term, and how's it going?

I'm trying to kick my book proposal into shape after yet another set of comments. I've lost track of how many times it's been 'nearly there' but I think it really is nearly there. Honest.

Gosh I don't think we do that Up. And we are quite on the ball with ref - had a practice last month for 2021 and we're writing our impact stories already

Well, you don't write a blatant REF par, of course - it's more subtle than that!

But it's important to identify what claims for originality & significance are being made in a piece.

Ideally, you'd do something subtle - but some people really are just shoe-horning in a blatant ole paragraph these days!! Basically, the situation in many fields is that the person on the panel has the same limited expertise we all have, and therefore simply isn't able to assess the relevance of every single piece of research. The idea is to give them a helping hand to understand the impact/originality/stakes of the case being presented in terms of the criteria.

Interesting, Up - I guess I tend to concentrate on getting the paper published first and foremost, which does emphasise claims for originality and significance, but I have the same issue as four at being at the intersection of several fields. Also, because I collaborate outside my University, the same paper is likely to be submitted to different UoAs by its various authors, so catering to one is very difficult. I've also found our advice about good REF papers sometimes directly contradicts what reviewers and editors have requested in revision. For example, we've been told to write titles and abstracts that emphasise more the general implications for the field and less specific details in order to not look "incremental", and specifically to not include species names in the title, and yet I've had papers published only after revision which directly requested to put more (specified) details in the abstract and include the species in the title!

shove - I'm still trying to figure that out :) I'm thinking as far as time commitment, it is not meant to be full-time and just a fraction of your effort. My mentor said he would be less concerned if I had a grant and a postdoc doing research, which could tick along when my attention was elsewhere, but at the moment I'm unfunded and any research that gets done needs to be done by me, and in order to get funding, I also need to put in the personal time to write proposals. So he was saying the role could make it harder to get my research going again, due to the time required elsewhere.

Yet I also feel like I have a lot of admin drains on my time at the moment, which are already making it hard for things to get going, just they are at a Dept rather than Uni level.

I do need to find out if the informal accommodations for my health would still be honoured, or if they would do something like give me a Uni blackberry and expect me to be contactable at all times. I wouldn't think so - the role doesn't seem like it would involve any urgent issues, although I haven't seen the Dean yet! I wonder if I would need to get an official change to my contract to a flexible working one. And if someone who actually only works 40 hrs/week can really have a role in the centre.

murmuration - A key question would seem to be how much more time this role would take than your current admin load? Having a sense of that would let you see what you are trading off more clearly.

I am not sure it's always about the number of hours either - there's also a difference in ways of working. I'm in the unusual position of having a lot of friends who are very, very much more senior than me. One thing I've noticed is that sometimes a lot of so-called "junior" admin roles, like being first year tutor, can actually involve almost as much time as these senior roles, particularly if they are done by someone who pours love and care into the students. The difference is that people can end up spending a LOT of time on things that are personally significant to students, but institutionally unimportant and unvalued. That's fine if you just love the role, but if you do want to get on and get promoted, it can hold you back.

By contrast, every senior person I know, from Heads of Department to Deans operates a kind of triage, where they become very good at quickly and efficiently (some might even say, shonkily) clearing the relatively insignificant stuff from their desks. It's like they have an A-game, which they bring to the top 10% most important stuff, then a B-game for the next 40% of semi-important things, then a C-game which is basically "get rid of it as fast as possible" for half the work that isn't that significant. If you can steel yourself to operate a system like that, you might find you can fit things in! But it is emotionally harder than it sounds for many people (perhaps especially for women?).

Argh! I am getting very tired of students addressing me as "Mrs". Just got an email from a PhD student that I'm starting a collaboration with, and she called me Mrs Surname. I usually give undergrads a pass, but I feel like PhD students should know better. But she is from a different culture, does that make a difference? It's like she was trying to be formal, whereas I'd be much happier if she just used my first name.

And I can't help wondering if she emails male faculty as "Mr" or not. Does this happen more to women than to men?

(And I never said anything, in our brief conversations, about being married - why go for Mrs??)

Yup. I've had e-mails like that.

Speaking of e-mails, my favourite recent one was: "I think I have solved [a three thousand year old problem that many are still debating]. Can you read what I have wrote and confirm that I have solved said problem before I hand in my essay?"

I am honestly puzzled by some expectations (I never would have sent my lecturer anything like that!). On the other hand, the engaged ones do compensate.

I'm writing a fellowship application this week, and to be truthful, it feels like yet another thing that won't go anywhere. Then I've got a month to do another one - same feeling with that too.

I used to think these things were purely about merit/interesting proposal. But many are not. The cronyism in academia is so very wearing at times. :-/

godstopper- there is a whole lot of it, and it is very wearing BUT there is also a law of failing better here! It's so hard to work for no certainty of "reward", but embracing the contingency and just going for it is a really valuable attitude. I say this as someone who is crippled by the fear of failure and rejection, who is trying to reform. [Wink]

Thanks for the advice, shove. Saw the Dean today. I'm getting different estimates of time - a current holder of a similar-level position estimated 15-20% time. Dean said 2-3 days/week! Although if it's closer to 2 than 3, it could be a one-to-one swap with first year. I'd have to do more than just 'step back', though. I'd have to drop it entirely. It's hard to let go of something that's been 'mine' for so long.

Research-y people are saying "it will negatively impact your research" (mentor, director of research). Although I am not sure they realise just how much time I spend on other admin already. I managed to drop one role in Jan, huge relief.

I really enjoyed talking the Dean and getting a Uni-level perspective on some issues. I think I am going to eventually decide to go for it, but it is hard - this could be a career-defining choice, and I don't want to take it lightly. I will need to work harder on prioritising, and on not wasting time because I don't know what to do next. And sometimes I get very introverted and don't want to communicate with other humans, which this role wouldn't be great for. Yet I am really fired up about the ideas I've had in relation to it, and have just had a pile of new ones after talking with the Dean. I just don't want to leave research behind entirely - or at all. Argh! I need to arrange some more meetings over the next week.

Also learned there are 3 more competitors for the position. So not a sure thing at all. Dean's timing is a decision in 3 weeks, and I need to let him know in about a week if I'm still interested.

I may be missing a whole load of context here murmuration, but it sounds like it could be more or less a straight swap in time terms with your current admin role. Which would leave you no better or worse than you currently are. I'm assuming you are not in the luxurious position of being able to dump admin altogether? Therefore it seems from the outside like a question of the known versus the unknown. [Smile]

I know what you mean about introversion, I am the same! I would, however, point out that first year tutor is probably the most hands on role there is in terms of dealing with people! So you can clearly manage it, even if it's not always congenial.

One last thing: I'm reading between the lines here and possibly adding two and two to make five, but if you are shifting from a departmental role to a faculty one, I think there may be a need to set some clear boundaries. Some roles are VERY open ended: they can be a day a week, or four days a week, depending on how well they are done. Being able NOT to do a great job for the sake of doing a balanced one that keeps your research going may be necessary, and that can be hard at first. But it is something people learn as they go on. Watching my DH and a couple of friends rise in the hierarchy has made me realise how much even those who seem outwardly to be composed and confident are busking it and in need of private reassurance and support!!

I think you can do this!! You sound ready, but that you doubt yourself. Just think of it this way: somewhere in your uni will be a bloke with half your skills and charm, who thinks he's more than qualified to do the job!!

shove, that's exactly it - it's moving up into the cross-dept faculty, whereas all my admin has thus far been within the dept. I really did enjoy talking to the Dean and getting that "wider" perspective - like why some of the things we keep asking for at the Dept level make for headaches trying to coordinate them all across the faculty. Although that made me think about ways we could change things to enable what the dept wants, but in a different way... I think I'd have to be much more settled before suggesting that.

Yeah, I can't dump admin entirely, and I've already emphasised that with the changes coming in first year (we're in the process of revamping a lot of things), I cannot be in sole charge and they need to get me help. I've even offered to be the "help" to do all those things they keep telling me isn't enough of a role for another person, but I know with the changes that have just been outlined, it's just too much for me. It would be closer to 90% time than 40%. I'm also panicking because people keep not making final decisions on the changes and I'd normally have all my ducks in a row for next year by now, and instead there's nothing. Meaning the summer will be a nightmare for first year. The idea that it might be someone else's nightmare is rather enticing...

I've now got a meeting set up with my Head and the current post-holder. I'm actually starting to think about asking to swap first year with something else even if I don't do/get this role - I am really worried that it will overload me like it did several years where promised assistance did not materialise.

Good point about balanced job vs best job. I have so many ideas, I'm sure I could spend all my time on the role, if I wanted. But there is a 'reactive' (as the dean called it) part that will be set and must be accomplished, and hopefully the current post-holder can give a me a good idea of what level of things are "must be" vs "you add your own".

And I guess the other thing about a faculty role is that within the dept, I can just say, "okay, yeah, that's too much for me, I need to step back" to one or two people, and it happens (um, which I've done like once now, and only in trade for something else). If I go for this, I'm committing for something like 3 years, and also with the attention of the higher-ups. So there is a greater level of commitment and more potential embarasment if I fall short!

I don't think for one second you are going to "fall short"! It sounds as though the danger really lies all the other way - with you flying into this role with a million and one great ideas and projects, and almost being TOO successful, to the detriment of other areas of your career and potentially your health! If you start slowly, get the measure of it, and then build into the creative parts of the role, I am sure you will handle this AND achieve an impressive amount.

To be honest, from the outside it sounds ideal. Your current role is being thrown up in the air, and you know that what is being asked is unsustainable and unfair. You have made that point to your HoD, who presumably isn't listening since the problem hasn't been solved. So this seems like a get-out that's good for you!

Do be aware of one thing when you meet your HoD, which is that the interests of a HoD are sometimes diametrically opposed to the interests of the Faculty. For your HoD, your decision will mean a depletion of admin capacity in the department - if several others are also out in the Faculty, that can be quite significant. This is absolutely NOT a reason for you not to pursue your own happiness, though! It's a reason to have a question mark hovering over any advice you receive from her (or him) about not taking the role, though!

Thanks for the confidence, shove! You are probably right that the danger lies in the other way.

HoD was supportive - even though we have lost a few people to faculty, some in major ways. And I will likely be released from first year in any case - if I don't take this role, I can take on something different. A big step for me already. Just things like I can't say, "Oh, I run first year in Subject at Uni X" if I need to define myself in an educational way. And I won't be able to smiling reassure prospective students that I'll be the person looking after them when they arrive! But I feel like it's the right thing to do.

I think I've almost made up my mind. Just need to square things with the new HoD. Have a meeting next week. And now I can hope that I wowed the current post-holder and Dean enough that I am the best candidate out of those going for it.

I did ask both HoD and our Athena SWAN head about my health accommodations - consensus was that's fine, it won't cause a problem, no need to highlight it to the Dean. I find this a bit odd - but HoD said it's common enough for people to vanish for afternoons and so many things are done on an informal way in academics. I suppose as long as I'm putting in full time work, and can make any meetings I need to, I should be okay.

Hope everyone is getting plenty of time off over the holiday period! Wanted to briefly resurrect the general thread to ask whether anyone else finds that they are giving the same feedback in marking to the same students (repeatedly)? I find I am rewriting the same feedback over and over again (and I give pretty detailed feedback, as I've always thought it matters), which is really frustrating, as if the student just TOOK the feedback, they'd be improving! So how do I get the students to read, and follow the advice? Any tips welcome!

For feedback, i use reflective sheets in submission. It includes the box "what feedback did you get on a previous piece of work that you used to make this submission better? Reflect on your use of feedback in your progress"

Oh that's a neat idea, thanks! Do you find it helps? Our feedback sheets are unfortunately fixed (school-wide), but I should be able to work in a similar reflective exercise somewhere off the sheet.

... it works with the ones who can be bothered.
Many write nothing in the box, or just "never got feedback" - which is of course IM PO SSI BLE these days.

Sounds familiar... but still, I will give it a go and see whether at least the ones who can be bothered stop reproducing the same mistakes as a result! Thanks for the suggestion!

Just catching up on this thread with a baby who's not letting me write my paper revisions, so that might affect my judgement, but I do think most of us actually need to hear the same feedback over and over before we take it in. Even when it's something seemingly very simple, (FFS sort out your basic punctuation/stop using the passive).

Hi LRD! I remembered there was a baby on the way, but you hadn't said anything so I didn't want to pry... When did it make its appearance? How are you doing?

I agree with needing to hear the same thing many times - even when I know how to write stuff, my first draft often makes my "common" mistakes, and I've even found sometimes I have to turn off my internal editor and let myself make the mistakes because I get so tied up in trying to do it differently but not knowing how, that I can't write at all! One thing I say to both my students and myself is "you can edit a poor draft; you can't edit a blank page".

Update on my decision above: I went ahead and put myself forward. Was told by the Dean, way back when, that he wanted to make decision by mid-April. Checked at the end of April with his secretary, and she said he's still working on it, and it would be last week (not) or early this week (not either!). Argh! I want to hear! I like future-imagining what I'll be doing and I hate not knowing. Am I staying safe in my comfort zone within the school, or am I venturing out into the wider world?

In the meantime, however, I've put in one grant application, have one almost done, and have started a third. (Plus got the news on two rejections, but I'm trying not to dwell...)

Okay, news came in. I didn't get it :(

I'm definitely dissapointed. I think I really did want it. And I'd gotten myself all geared up for thinking at a broader level, and now I'm feeling all tiny again. And not sure what to do next. I guess I should gear up the research and try to be that research star I don't think I can be. But that's my current path and I'm not sure what else to do.

That's a shame murmuration. Perhaps I aim low, but I don't aim to be a star at anything, more just do fine and not mess up! Difficult to know what next for you, but perhaps a different admin/management post, there'll be others.

Thanks, four. I guess I don't really mean be a star... At the moment I'll settle for any grant, or even a student. Right now it's just me: I've totally lost count if the grants I've had rejected in the 5 years since returning from mat leave, but it's on the order of 15-20 or so - no years with less than 2 applications, some with 6. I keep interviewing PhD students and they either don't get past our internal competitions or decide to go elsewhere. And I can't do primary research on my own with my teaching and admin load. I guess I was hoping this was another route to promotion. Or at least not being on the chopping block if they bring one out...

I feel like I have to get something if I keep trying, right? 2 grant rejections so far thus year, but one just in and two more in the works. Plus we just sent another PhD applicant to the internal competition.

I am sympathetic to the problems of getting PhD students, I had a very dry spell when our funding body suddenly made it much harder and less straightforward with these competitions, then dep't ones disappeared and so on. I ended up getting one or two via the competitions when the top candidates dropped out. I haven't tried for a year or two though.

Grants- that sounds like a huge number. I have probably made one a year in that time span and I'm reasonably proactive compared with some colleagues, I'm probably normal although not a high achiever on that score. Do you know why they are stumbling? Is that the norm to do so many in your sector? We are now encouraged to do fewer but high quality and have them reviewed/vetted/going through internal competition first, which is a frustrating process and feels like it's stopping you sometimes, but in another way does act as a quality control and getting good feedback from successful peers is useful.

There's no magic solution, but it is tough out there, there's been quite a few threads from people feeling their career is stalling or in the doldrums on this board lately and I'm wondering if really what is required to feel like you are moving on is just so high now, it's unachievable at times.