Anyone want a general chat?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

By which title I mean, of course, that I am procrastinating and if I can't rise above it I'd love to drag you all down with me.

What are we all doing this term, and how's it going?

I'm trying to kick my book proposal into shape after yet another set of comments. I've lost track of how many times it's been 'nearly there' but I think it really is nearly there. Honest.

Impact .

DH and the DDs are away visiting family until Monday so I get to spend the weekend trying to design a grant application that will put me in a good position for REF-able impact. Unfortunately, it isn't very easy to develop projects with strong/easily measurable impact. I have two ideas, but I can't get past the 'this is a cool idea, but what the hell do I do with it.....'

Duh. That should have said 'projects in History.

I need a drink tonight

How is everybody?

I'm feeling a bit defeatist at the moment. We just got an internal call for applications - I applied to this a couple years ago and got a few £K, which I used to good effect. But a condition of the competition was that you were meant to apply to a particular funding agency; yet I was told not to apply to this in my following annual review because I would not be competitive. Now the internal call has come around again, but instead of offering handfuls of £K's, they're offering on the order of £80K. But I can't apply because I haven't yet fulfilled the conditions of my first award. It specifically said if you haven't applied to the funding agency yet you can't compete - but that if you applied and were rejected, that's okay. I'm so frustrated. I listened to and followed advice, but it's turned out to make things more difficult for me.

Chatting to DH last night about just making some sort of radical change. Not really serious. But sort of... The problem is I can't imagine what. Having a steady job in this economic climate is nothing to sneeze at. I don't have aging parents with a successful farm shop I could take over, like a colleague a few years ago quit to do.

Okay, I should think more positive. I'm going to think about applying to that funding agency anyway against advice, so I can get my reject, so I can apply to the internal competitions again (but probably next time they'll have used up their money and it will only be a few £K.... but that's being defeatist! got to be positive!).

that's crap murmuration - can you email the committee and highlight that while you were preparing a submission you were actively discouraged to apply? They may consider this as a valid point?

Feeling crap as well - anxiety ramped to max. I have people coming round this pm for a "social call" [I am not social]. I live in a hovel, the direct consequence of working day and night, and the prospect of visitors is petrifying.

I have otherwise failed at getting on with writing - and decided instead to ponder similar big changes...

Quick Q (hoping someone might advise).

Thinking about applying for a lecturing job: it says they are looking for someone developing a publication profile in the early stages of their career, and asks for a plan for 2020 REF submissions.

It is also a new course for the uni.

Me: Now fixed-term associate lecturer & postdoctoral fellow. Couple of papers under review, with a definite plan (as in titles/entire papers mapped out) for more during the break/summer when teaching is a bit less crazy.

Normally, I wouldn't consider these ads as they are quite explicit about actually having pubs rather than being in the process of getting them out. But this one seems a little different.

Worth a shot? Would you disregard someone with my profile for this kind of job? (I'm only a year post-Phd ...). I have to think carefully now about what's worth applying for and what isn't given the time consuming nature of apps.

Godstopper in my area, which is social sciences (PM me if you want me to be more specific) it would depend how scarce lecturers were in that subject/discipline. There are some disciplines/sub-disciplines where we are spoiled for choice, get 150 good applications and end up with over-qualified lecturers carrying around books and grants. In other sub-disciplines, it is hard to recruit and we have definitely taken lecturers in those who have more modest profiles in line with finishing their PhDs/being early into the post-doc stage.

I know that's a bit of annoying answer, but it really would depend...

Well ... there is now an oversupply of PhD's in my subject (v. traditional humanities one), and had I fully appreciated this, I may not have gotten one! But here I am, and not quite ready to abandon ship yet.

I know I can't compete with those who have multiple pubs/more post-doc experience. I'm getting there, but it's naturally taking time (publication takes months as I'm finding out!). Some of the jobs I applied for last year had 100+ applicants, and I can only assume that, once the essential criteria were met, intangibles came into play.

There have been approx. 5 jobs in my field since Sept., and this is the first one that may not be a waste of time applying for.

I wouldn't say don't apply, you really can't stand a chance unless you do, but I have to be honest, I wouldn't be that optimistic from what you've said. Sorry to be blunt, those type of jobs tend to go to very well qualified people who want to move location and can take the salary hit of staying as a lecturer, I've found, or people at the top of their scale of lecturer looking to move to senior in a year or two.

I am not in the humanities though, so it may differ.

The situation you are in is very common- you end up teaching huge workloads, which diminishes your time to write/make grant applications, which is the only thing you are really judged on for lectureships...I have friends in similar dilemmas, one has just jumped out of assoc lec and taken a post-doc where she can write for this reason.

Some of the jobs I applied for last year had 100+ applicants.

So realistically this job is likely to have a lot of applications too. Nothing wrong with applying but don't read too much into the advert wording.

"Developing a publication profile..." would in my scientific field mean that you had 10 or 20 publications.

Well, the ad says:

"Our ideal candidate for this position will have a developing research profile in any area of [my discipline], of a calibre which will allow him or her publications to be returned to the next REF, and the potential to become an outstanding HE teacher."

I've got the lecturing part having now developed/led my own modules. An immediate consequence of that is having had no time to write anything, which of course, is what I'll be using the break for like many do.

The salary is lower than normal for a full-time lecturer. The university is one I'd consider good, but my discipline is horribly elitist, and there is a definite attitude towards certain institutions.

It's a pretty grim situation. You do a PhD, do well, and then feel deceived because the job situation is just awful. Then, when someone does leave the discipline, noises are made about 'failure' - it's reaching a point where only the relatively wealthy and well-connected can afford to stay. But no-one talks about that.

Might be a post-doc coming up next year, but there is v. uncertain at the moment. There are occasional teaching fellowships, but the last 3 I applied for all went to an internal candidate which may, of course, have been a coincidence, but ... it's discouraging.

20 pubs! I did laugh out loud at the idea of someone in my position having that, sorry. Might be normal in the sciences.

For us, it's assumed you're doing well if you have 1-2 good publications a year, and 1 paper a year is the expectation of lecturers in my discipline. Those with 20+ are the professors.

Very few post-docs in my field. I don't think I could do this teaching load next year though - it's simply not realistic if you want to write. It may be that I'm better off being unemployed for a while and getting more stuff written (can do this for about a year ...).

Can I join in?

I'm back to work in six weeks after my second mat leave. Slightly dreading it due to DS2 being a non sleeping model. Also my discipline has been ridiculously busy in the last year and I have so much catch up to do it's a little bit overwhelming.

Godstopper that's what my friend did, moved off a teaching lectureship (fixed term and going nowhere) to a postdoc with more time to write, however if you have a year off, you have to be very self-disciplined to get much done. Plus if you are a regular lecturer you do have to write as well as lecture, although in some places the teaching lectureships take the mickey in terms of high workload.

Furry that sounds exhausting, I also went back after my second quite quickly but I wasn't at my most productive, if I'm perfectly honest. I think realistic goals is the way to go, and something is better than nothing, don't beat yourself up if you aren't performing to your peak just yet.

Hi Foureyes,

Well, I'm teaching two modules this term, and it's all gone a bit mad. I can't stand to pick up anything else related to my projects after teaching/admin stuff is done. Maybe I should. But I'd also like to do normal things too like e.g. walk the dogs, have a shower, see my partner, clean the house!

I do indeed some academics writing papers at ungodly hours, but ... at what cost? Sorry, but the reality (in my discipline at least) is that you will publish a paper that about 5 people who understand your topic will read. I find it seriously bizarre that this is considered 'impact.' Of course, we should be getting stuff out there, but I drew a line at doing stuff at the expense of my mental health a while back.

If it costs me, then I'm past caring. I'm fortunate enough to be able to say this (in a good financial situation whatever happens).

As a regular lecturer, you'd get more say over your workload. Most do one module a term, and not all terms at that. I'm doing about triple!

Take the point about self-discipline. Ideally, the post-doc would come off, but if it doesn't, I do question whether I should try for another teaching post or just aim to focus on writing.

I don't know about the modules, how much that workload is, I do one double or two singles per term, and in my institution, everyone teaches the same amount unless directly bought out with a grant.

If you could bear the cost, then taking some time out to write could work, you could do that for six months (and turn around the papers you have out that might need revisions), then look in the second half of the year. But lectureships are pretty hard to get in some specialties. I'm lucky that I can frame my work differently if I need to, which would be more aligned with the job market. Are there any options to do that in your discipline (e.g. do medical humanities?)

Lectureships are indeed hard to get. I think it's o.k to be open and say that my field is philosophy. I can count on one hand the no. of lectureships I've seen in the U.K since finishing my PhD. The people that I've seen appointed have several years post-doc exp. and multiple (not a ridiculous number, but certainly several) publications.

The ad was sent to me directly by someone encouraging me to apply. It's wording is very different from some of the other ads which do make explicit reference to having 3* + publications as an essential requirement. This one only says 'proven ref-able pubs' for the senior lecturer post; hence my giving it more thought than others.

Like you, I think I can frame stuff differently if needed. There are other things I'm interested in within a university environment (widening participation), and I've done other stuff alongside my PhD, so that should help.

It's been quite dispiriting post-PhD at times. I now think that dept's have a moral obligation to tell students just how bad it is before they sign up: some peddle the myth of 'if you work hard and get a good PhD, then you will get an academic job' - it needs quite a bit more than that. Saying otherwise is telling lies.

Nowt to do but plod on (with rather a lot of wine!)

Godstopper I think I've mentioned Havi Carel before as an excellent example of someone (a philosopher no less) who has found a very impactful and well-funded niche, her work is on philosophy of medicine and death, and holds some huge grants from well-known funding bodies because she has made her work relevant (through medical humanities) to medical training of doctors. I'm sure more than 5 people read her papers, and her work does have great impact.

I'm not suggesting you be her, it's really hard to achieve that but just illustrating how some flexible/reframing might work even in fairly straightforward disciplines.

I do think publications are everything at your stage.

It's been quite dispiriting post-PhD at times. I now think that dept's have a moral obligation to tell students just how bad it is before they sign up: some peddle the myth of 'if you work hard and get a good PhD, then you will get an academic job' - it needs quite a bit more than that. Saying otherwise is telling lies

I never tell my PhD students they will get an academic job, I say that they will probably get a fixed contract post-doc but there's a scarcity of lectureships and this is the place they may fall down (but could go into policy/public/commercial research sector). I do talk a lot about careers though with mine, as I also want to know if they are serious about continuing, I mean really serious, as that would mean pushing forward writing papers into the PhD time, going to more conferences, and generally positioning their CV a bit more aggressively towards academic posts than if they are just drifting through, quite like the idea of continuing (which lots do) but aren't really dedicated or realistic about what that might look like.

Yes, Havi Carel is brilliant! I do think there is scope for making philosophy more relevant, and one thing I'm looking into is the possibility of bringing it into schools/joining an organization that does this. I don't really do the medical/ethics side, I'm more a 'Mind' person, but even there, there is scope for collaborating with e.g. psychologists. So ... there are options.

Of my cohort, most have not found academic jobs. And they had a more straightforward path through their PhD than me: it's difficult to explain that it took longer than usual because I had time out to have a cochlear implant, and so, put me on a more equal footing ... which may have done the opposite! I'm finally able to e.g. go to conferences, lecture, participate in seminars, and that's been brilliant. But disabilism is also rife in philosophy (and other disciplines I expect). Things are changing, but slowly.

I'm not complaining about my current job! I'm happy enough lecturing. It's the job market in general that's worrying. The pressure has increased at all levels, and sometimes, I see demands for publications even for a post-doc. That's not right. We're at a point where people are pressured to get lots out, with quality sometimes being sacrificed for quality.

Publication is also a demoralizing game. The type of journals you're expected to publish in are those with a rejection rate of about 95%. Of course publication takes a while ... something most new PhD's don't have.

It's been quite dispiriting post-PhD at times. I now think that dept's have a moral obligation to tell students just how bad it is before they sign up: some peddle the myth of 'if you work hard and get a good PhD, then you will get an academic job' - it needs quite a bit more than that. Saying otherwise is telling lies

We had ethics sessions about this when I started my PhD 20 years ago. It's sad that things haven't seemed to move on at all in that time.

One good thing, I suppose, in the crunch on PhD funding is the hope that as we train less PhDs, less PhDs out the other side on the job market might make things a little better?

Godstopper - I would actually advise you to apply. While you may not get it, it is very good experience to lay out all your selling points for a job application. Worst case scenario: you get nothing, not even an interview, but you hopefully have had a dry run for the next time you apply.

I am otherwise struggling with a team member, who is pushing neediness to the extreme. I've coached her through some of her personal attributes and attitudes that make her unfriendly to her peer group [she is needy, demanding, and selfish, no less - will take time and focus away from others, towards her, despite others being often more deserving of attention / more junior]. I have also sent her on countless training courses - but no. No luck. She still manages to foster a toxic relationship between us, where she expects, and demands, to the point where I am going to crack and lash out [BIG TIME]...

I despair...

Marasme try not to actually hit her:)

A toxic team member is really an awful thing. I have a very good friend who was driven almost to the brink of a breakdown last year by a similar situation, and he's as tough as old boots, but the bad behaviour, neediness, complaints made just started to get him down. Can you sideline her a little bit just to give you breathing space or is she just demanding in terms of turning up at your room/emailing constantly? People definitely differ in how much they consider acceptable contact.

She is very dedicated and a hard worker - which seems to be her "pass" to justify her behaviour. I could definitely describe the relationship as "intense". I'll see her at my weekly academic surgery - without a fail. She will also be in touch daily via email or our group social media platform [which we favour over email]. To some extent, this is not the issue - the issues are the complaints [not enough feedback, not enough hand-holding, not enough time with / for her alone], the requests [more feedback, more time, more resources, better UG students, faster turn arounds on feedback], the moans [me, the team, the world have wronged her], the very naive approach to life and work [one's struggle to study for PhD and write thesis is the most massive burden in life, and noone understand her].

I could go on. I want to slap her. Hard.

No amount of remediation has touched the abusive aspect of her behaviour. I don't even think she understands that her behaviour has antagonised the team to a very bad bad extent.