religion in the work place wwyd?

[teafortwo]

My dh is a fairly quiet kinda guy. I would even go far as to say a bit shy.

He works with a team of eight people in a fairly specky job. His team are very well educated. Out of the eight of them, five are muslims. My dh and two other men are not.

Usually he enjoys his work and the team dynamics. However, for the past few weeks he keeps complaining to me that recently his days are constantly seasoned with Islam.

These are only two examples from the past two days so you can get an idea:

1)) He was getting on with his work when he was called over to another man's work station to be invited to show disgust at a negative image of a woman wearing a burka in the press.

2. He invited a team mate to "discuss this over coffee" only to have the business discussion come to an end because his friend wanted to tell him he couldn't have a coffee as he was fasting and went on to tell DH all the reasons behind this.

They are a wonderful crowed and dear friends of DH's. DH values them as really bright, fun and interesting people but these recent constant undercurrents of 'religion talk' and what is more treating their own opinions and beliefs as complete fact is really stressing DH out -especially coming from such brilliant minds (their jobs are basically to think outside the box)!

Yet, of course and most importantly, he has no desire to upset the usual positive office climate, loose dear friends or offend anyone.

So... I am interested because he keeps asking my advice and I just don't know...if you were him, what would you do, if anything at all?

Neither of the two examples you give seem to be offensive - more just about people sharing their lives, so I'd suggest not taking offensive but learn a few skills for changing the subject:

"Oh, of course, it's Ramadan . Okay, in that case, can we chat about this at 10:00 tomorrow in Meeting Room 1."

If discussion of why continues, treat it like he would any other non work related conversation that is boring/inappriate/distracting...,"I'm sorry, I really must get on with those sales figures, I'll talk to you later."

i think your DH needs to take on board he has muslim workmates, and if they are fasting it is polite to respect that, rather than be irritated by it.

discussing a negative image of a woman in a burka is not just something muslims would discuss
perhpas your DH could read up a little on the religion of his colleagues , if it is something importatnt to them, that is going to pop up from time to time>

if they were all christians , and discussing Xmas or easter and not wanting a steak lunch on a friday, would he be bothered?

if he does not want to offend anyone, he needs to be respectful of his team mates beliefs, same as if they were buddhist/hindu/jewish etc

we live in a diverse country, and being irritated by people discussing their religion in the workplace is only going to end badly

what bling said

People always chatter at work - it's just part of the work environment - if they are stopping him from doing his job then he should tell them to shut up.

I think that, for them, Islam is such a large part of their lives that it IS their life.

It would be like you going to work and being expected not to talk about your family. It would be impossible.

Their religion dicates how they live, who they are, so obviously they are going to discuss it at work. So long as their work is not impeded by it then I really don't see this as a problem at all. Just let them get on with it.

I think perhaps you are being a little OTT....as a catholic Im often asked my opinion over things that are really insignificant and have nothing to do with what im actually doing - because im catholic people seem to assume im always up to discuss abortion,contraception,sex before marreiage,divorces and of course anything to do with and form of child abuse .....I know its a different angle to the op describes but I merely turn the convo round back to what I was initially discussing.

By the way I imagine Christmas can become a bit 'boring' for those of other religions.

I don't think that the examples you've given are overtly Islamic, the first is a colleague who is sharing a news item - could be something completely different another day - and the second is someone just trying to explain why he can't do something.

TBH, I think yor DH may be being oversensitive, and can't really understand why he would be getting stressed out.

I think he should not do anything. Islamic subjects (burka/ minarets/ ...) are a hot topic in the actuality recently. For Muslims these subjects need to be discussed the same way as you would discuss teenage pregnancy or the cost of your car insurance. I think the conversation will go on other subjects when things calm down a bit.

I think it is sort of normal that the subjects discuss reflect the variety of people involved in the discussion. I am the only Muslim in my circle of friends so do not talk much about things that are dear to my heart. I suppose if Ihad more Muslim friends, the non -Muslim ones might feel a bit left out but be assured it would not be to force my religion on anyone just like I do not think that my current friends are pressurising me to go out and get drunk.

For him to "complain" It would be like me complaining about my friends telling me every Monday morning about their Saturday night out and the quantity of wine they drunk and the things it made them do or how hard it is to get ready for Christmas. It would not make us very popular. It is easier to listen and move the conversation to a subject HE is interested in when the opportunity comes.

Interesting comments so far.

Actually he has been reading up on Islam and we went to Tunis on holiday last year and Turkey this year because he has been keen to visit Muslim countries to learn more about them. We both find humanity greatly interesting and of course this includes all regligions.

I suppose what feels uncomfortable to him is that a culure is developing within the office where it is not OK for his Christian friend to discuss being a Christian if he wished to and it is not comfortable for DH who has more agnostic leanings to discuss any of his thoughts and ideas... yet these are friends of his who he would like to have nice, deep, understanding and thoughtful conversations with. I think he wants to be accepted and have his opinions tolorated and understood too IYSWIM?

Sorry about all the typos - I have to get dd to school and am typing with one hand!!!

I will have a look later to see anymore ideas.

Thanks a lot!

Teafortwo You haven't really given examples of that. Does he feel bullied or intimidated?

Personally I don't know why anyone WOULD want to sit around at work discussing their deepest philosophical beliefs, but I can understand why a group of Muslim friends might have a bit of chatter that feels a bit exclusive - just the same way that a group of women might say "Oh look at this shit article!" etc. in a way that men might not really 'get'

Eh? Who has said he can't discuss his faith or lack of? The fact that his colleagues discuss their faith doesn't mean he can't mention other matters. If they say anything intimidating that should of course be addressed by his superiors but them simply mentioning issues of interest or their religious feasts isn't intimidating and he just needs to get over it frankly!

He should definitely have his opinion tolareted and understood, that is the least anyone can askreally, whatever religion or non religion they practise.

Can I ask something? ""a culure is developing within the office where it is not OK for his Christian friend to discuss being a Christian if he wished to" why? Is it the friends who made it a rule for himself not to talk about hisreligion as to not upset people or is it imposed by the management? there should not be a difference in treatment between Muslims and Christians and as long as no one is being offensive to the otrher, all discussions should be allowed.

so what has happened that is making him feel his opinion isn;t tolerated? have people been offensive or dismissive?

Expressing their own opinions doesn;t mean they don't value other people's

NB I also think he might be being a bit ambitious thinking 'these are friends of his who he would like to have nice, deep, understanding and thoughtful conversations with'. They're not - they're work colleagues and there is a difference.

Hello Tea.

In your dh's shoes, I would try to take a polite interest in his colleague's chit chat, whether it's about their fasting for Ramadan or about anything else. Of course, if it's getting in the way of actually doing any work, he needs to excuse himself and get back to business. But it would be sad, I think, if people felt they couldn't mention important aspects of their lives to their colleagues - that "leave your home life at the front desk" approach has had its day, I think.

I wonder if what's happening here is that, because Islam isn't (I'm assuming) part of your dh's background or experience, he simply notices the mentions of Islam more than he does (say) the football results, the weather or any of the customary topics of office conversation. It doesn't sound like there's any proselytising or provocation going on. Even if your dh is Richard Dawkins and despises all religion, I think he has to accept that for others it is an imporant part of who they are (although I appreciate that attitudes may be different in France).

Oops. Long post.

I'm wondering about this: "DH values them as really bright, fun and interesting people but these recent constant undercurrents of 'religion talk' and what is more treating their own opinions and beliefs as complete fact is really stressing DH out -especially coming from such brilliant minds (their jobs are basically to think outside the box)!"

Are people not allowed to consider what they believe in as fact? Does he ever question his agnostic position and think that maybe they are right, or say an atheist is right?

I was interrupted and side-tracked while composing that post and so missed your second post, Tea, and several others.

If there really is a culture developing where it's OK to discuss some religions and not others (or lack of religion) then I think that does need to be challenged. I would hope that it could be resolved in a low-key way, by modelling respectful and tolerant behaviour, but does the workplace have any sort of equal opportunities/diversity policy? What does it say? Do France's secularist policies in schools also extend to the workplace?

I would also guess that your DH's colleagues are going into fairly lengthy chit chats because they perhaps think either that he is interested or that he doesn't understand and they want him to know that, for example, they're not just making excuses when they say they can't have coffee - it's not unheard of for people who aren't of the same religion to simply not understand why the other person is doing something and to think, "but surely a quick cup of coffee is fine". Similarly, DH has been tryig to cut out diary and it's amazing how often people say to him, "oh, but you can have a cup of tea with a splash of milk" or whatever and he has to go into long involved explanations that no, he's not being difficult or rude, but he'd rather stick to a glass of water or a black coffee or a juice, thank you very much.

It certainly doesn't sound like they're having philisophical discussions.

It's also interesting because in most english work environments, inevitably the core group of people would be christian (whether "religious" or not) and so that would be the default setting for the team. It's entirely possible that if more of the team are muslim, then yes, the default team dynamic will be muslim.

Well last wk was Eid so its like our xmas so they were prob a bit excited & could hav been chatting a bit more then normal cause it was hajj last wk too & most ppl fast the day before Eid... Its like it was xmas eve they were workin & prob excited about the hols & jus wanted to share their excitement wit your dh explaining stuff to him... If my friends/ collegues were tellin me xmas wk all about their plans/xmas gifts/night outs or the reasons behind their celebrating such days id not be offended in the least, in fact id feel it tot normal & be genuinely interested... I understand your dh might be shy but i cant understand his stress to be honest? He actually sounds like he's interested in the religion... However, I do know that some muslims may not be so open to discussions about things which directly contradict our beliefs its not that they are trying to put your dh 'into a box' as such but they just feel so strongly about their faith like rhubarb said its such a big part of their lives

Not sure that the work place is really the right place for discussions about religion anyway. At first I thought it was an issue of your DH's Muslim colleagues discussing their religion during work time, which may or may not be appropriate. It's one thing to say, 'sorry, can't join you for coffee as I'm fasting for Ramadan...' and quite another that your DH feels uncomfortable as he wants to be able to have Christian discussions.

Personally, don't think that religion is the right topic for the workplace, other than explanations.

Thing is, if you're spending say, 40 hours a week plus with these individuals, religion and all other sorts of topics will come up in conversation (unless you're in a head down, work, don't talk to colleagues kind of place).

oh yes they will come up

but that doesn't mean you have to sit down and have cosy heart-to-hearts about them

I think if he's feeling intimidated, and unable to express his own views because they are not the prevailing ones in the office, then he needs to approach the issue in the same way as he would if he happened to be someone of any other minority group. He should politely challenge statements when they are made, to ensure that his colleagues don't assume their views are the only ones around. And if that doesn't change the dynamics, then he should speak to his manager or HR about how diversity issues can be better dealt with.

The examples you've given don't seem to be particularly difficult or unusual, they're the kind of mild irritants that come up all the time in offices - I frequently have to "tune out" discussions about football and horror films as I have no interest, but it doesn't give me a problem unless the work-rate seems to be dropping too far!

In my time I've had to put up with lots of football chat
Animal rights
Guns and shooting game
Kite-flying (dear me that was dull)
marriage and what it means
salsa
Oxford City Library.....

Unless they are trying to convert him (I have, actually, had this at work, too, but this woman was not representative), why can't he just smile and nod like we all do?

oh and computer games

dull-o-rama