My three year old has started being foul to older sibling

[struggling2307]

And I’m really struggling with how to deal with it without it unfairly impacting on said sibling. Examples from today include shoving from a height at a play area and leaping on his back - we left but DS in tears because he didn’t want to go. Kicking ds while watching tv - the TV goes off but ds then doesn’t get to watch it either.

I don’t know if we’re in the midst of yet another stage but it’s horrible and I hate it.

I’d have to physically hold her down to give her a time out and really fight her which may not go down well (it would effectively be physical abuse tbh, even though it would be her causing it in a way.)
There is something called assertiveness. Kids do learn that they don't get to rule the roost. If to get there, you have to take her in another room, and stay there, in front of the door, until she calms down, then that's what you do.

As for the incident in the park, if she behaves so badly, you feel you can't stay, you tell them both that you have to go home, but that as soon as you get home, you'll arrange for whoever to look after her for one hour and you'll take your son alone.

Kids learn by boundaries and consequences. Maybe you could look into a parenting class? Many councils offer free online courses.

Lock the other door? Or go and get her and bring her back each time. She might try 10 times, you consistently bring up back 10 times. That's assertiveness and consistency. You don't give up at the first act of rebellion.

Blimey, that escalated.
If you can’t physically move her then you need to seek help as she needs some very solid boundaries to help her become an adult who understands you can’t jump on people’s backs just because you feel like it.

You do have to stop punishing your DS even though it feels like the easiest way to deal with a situation. She will need some form of physical restraint as three year olds are not known for being reasonable and able to have a conversation where she says sorry Mummy, I shouldn’t have done that.

If she is due to start school soon, then this becomes really urgent, as other parents won’t stand for this being done to their child.

You need to contact everyone for help, Health Visitor, nursery, social services, her GP, Home Start and a load of other people I have no idea about. You need to do some parenting courses.

I am trying to imagine her at 13 and it is so so scary.

What's yikes about not hurting each other?

I don’t have an issue with being firm when needed but there is a difference between ‘you have hurt your brother so we are going’ and grabbing, wrestling and fighting to keep her in one place.

It’s a bit like when she decides she wants something he’s got. In theory ‘don’t let her’ is fine but it involves chasing her, grabbing her, forcing it out of her hand and then she just charges after him and snatches it back anyway. The only way is to remove her completely from the situation and I can’t always do that when there are two children and one of me.

If the layout doesn’t work then you take her to her bedroom and keep her in there. You just need to do anything to keep her away from your DS so she isn’t spoiling everything for him too and thereby winning.

same with snatching. Let him take the toy into his room and then hold the door closed with you and her outside

I'd watch some supernanny episodes to get ideas of how to do it and to follow through with the consistency. It's hard but doable. Three is a great age too as they are small and pick-up-able and you can nip it in the bud quickly.

Everything about your approach is wrong (and fantasy). By switching off the TV you show DS that he is less important than his sister and she only has to act up to get attention. You’ve just punished him
for her actions. As everyone else has said, you give her one chance to behave,
and if (when) she doesn’t, you remove her from the scene and leave DS to it. If you have to physically pick her up you do it.
The fantasy part is where you think moving to another activity is any different to watching TV. She will come over and disrupt that activity also, but even worse because you’ve just taught her you will adjust your behaviour based on how much she acts up. Last thing she will do is listen to gentle parenting rubbish about how we don’t hit and play nice and apologise.

Surely there is a bedroom with a door? Put her in the room. Sit in front of the door. Expect to be there a while. Stay calm. Say to yourself “This too will pass” over and over.

Yes that’s what I said I do sometimes. Not always practical though.

I also have a strong willed 3 year old. It’s much easier to give consequences at home in my opinion. If she is nasty to her sister, or is behaving really badly, she goes in her bedroom, and I sit on the floor and block the door, and just completely ignore her until she calms down (which can take a good while and a LOT of screaming).

Out and about, I just rely on positive reward behaviour (e.g. if we play nicely at the park, we can get an ice cream at the end). If she doesn’t play nicely, we leave early and her sister gets an ice cream. She’ll have a tantrum, but we’re leaving by then anyway.

I suspect I've been at this game a lot longer than you.

1. What every child craves is attention and that's what the older child gets
2. They are protected by your presence
3. The natural consequence for not behaving well is that you don't get to join in
4. A no violence house rule is just common sense
5. Apologies are always expected for poor behaviour from adults and children

You may think this is bullshit but as I have just one house rule that applies equally which is don't be a dick you'd be on the wrong side of it.

Stop punishing your older child - why should he not be able to play or watch tv after being hit etc by your 3 year old.

If you have to leave the park then you take the older one for ice cream. If you have to turn off the tv then you turn the a program that the older one likes and not the younger one etc…

I can see why you're stuck on this, and please don't take the pile-on to heart. Having a three-year-old myself, I know how quickly a normal day can turn into a standoff, especially when there's an older child watching to see what happens.

The one thing that helped us most was separating the consequence from the other child as much as possible. So instead of switching the TV off for everyone, we try to pause it just for the child who hit or snatched, while the other one keeps watching, even if that means sitting with them for a few minutes to make it stick. It isn't perfect, and some days it still ends in tears, but it stops the older one feeling punished for something they didn't do.

We also keep the rule very short and the same every time: we don't hit, we don't snatch, and if it happens we step away for a minute to calm down, then we try again. Repeating that boringly consistently seems to land better than a long explanation in the moment. You're clearly thinking hard about being fair to both of them, and that counts for a lot.

Get the buggy back out of the shed if you can’t physically restrain her from attacking her brother and stop letting her rule the roost.
Your son is being punished for her nonsense right alongside her, why are you doing this?

If you cant physically restrain her and you dont use a buggy, how do you stop her running off or running into the road?

Because this is sounding very unsafe

I'm sorry but you have to take charge of the situation. If you're out and struggling to prevent her attacking her sibling, you tell her it's absolutely not acceptable, then don't engage with her any more. You give the older sibling the attention - playing with him, saying well done etc. Do you have a door to the room where the tv is? If so, you remove her into the hall (obviously making sure she's safe in that area and can't get out), shut the door and if necessary pull an arm chair/settee across.If that doesn't work and tv goes off, as said don't engage with her any more and give your son some attention.

Back in the 80s you would of got your arse leathered.

I think the no 1 critical question here, above all else, is: OP, do you have a buggy?

She doesn’t do that, never has, so maybe I’m not such an abject failure as all that.

That said, I do think she’s hit a very challenging stage. They come and go. I was a bit low with it all yesterday (if that wasn’t obvious)

Pick her up, bring her to her bedroom, close the door behind both of you, sit against it so she cannot get out and let her tantrum to her heart's content on the floor. When she calms down, she can come out.

Pick her up and move her away, she'll run back then pick her up and move her away. Again and again and again. It's exhausting and very easy to cave in. If it's in the home you need to remove her and stay in another room with her. Block her path back. She will have a massive tantrum and let her. When she calms down tell her she can only go back to the TV room if she doesn't use her hands or legs (or whatever words she gets). She will inevitably try again and you'll probably have to repeat the process. Most kids will chance their arm a few times before they understand you mean business, so be prepared for several tantrums. You have to be really firm now, this is when they test boundaries and you need to set them

But she can decide to do that, at any minute. She’s in charge, and that’s a dangerous state of affairs. What would you do if she did take off in public, given that she doesn’t respond to you at all?

Surprised at so many comments about physically restraining three year olds.

I’d tell her that if she didn’t stop doing whatever she’s doing wrong the brother will get dessert/a magazine/whatever and she won’t.