My three year old has started being foul to older sibling

[struggling2307]

And I’m really struggling with how to deal with it without it unfairly impacting on said sibling. Examples from today include shoving from a height at a play area and leaping on his back - we left but DS in tears because he didn’t want to go. Kicking ds while watching tv - the TV goes off but ds then doesn’t get to watch it either.

I don’t know if we’re in the midst of yet another stage but it’s horrible and I hate it.

You don’t think someone would be concerned about an adult restraining a screaming crying child for a prolonged period of time? And potentially come and intervene or try and report it? I’d be concerned if I saw that. It doesn’t seem good for anyone. Surely one of them is getting hurt physically at least and it would be Very exhausting for them both.

This is serious. You need to find some help from somewhere. Where is their dad?
You need urgent help as you've lost perspective.

If I had to restrain her, I’d have to pick her up (in itself no mean feat when they are struggling with every fibre of their being) and then physically prevent her from joining her brother which would involve sort of crushing down on her limbs (as she’d be lashing out and kicking) and pressing on her middle as she’d be doing an arched back thing.

I really don’t see how to do that without using considerable physical force and when it’s like that and you’re stressed anyway it is very easy to do damage without meaning to.

She used to be nice and still is to other children and her brother isn’t like this so I don’t think it’s my abysmal parenting. Or maybe I’m just telling myself that as I do feel like maybe it’s my fault and if I was more severe she’d comply and wouldn’t keep hurting her brother.

A big enveloping hug used to be recommended for a small tantrumming child, to help them feel safe and contained. Anyway if OP actually puts in some consequences, she won’t have to deal with too many will she.

You’ve clearly got no idea how much children’s services actually have to deal with before they get on to how parents cope with tantrums. Addiction, methadone being left around, dirty needles, neglect, lack of food, lack of basic hygiene, being left in the care of dangerous adults…

@CousinBette to do that and to not get her to go back to wherever I would have to pretty much crush her. It would involve more physical force than would be OK. Maybe that wouldn’t meet the threshold for children’s services but doesn’t make it acceptable, especially when I’m struggling with my temper anyway.

Lack of buggy notwithstanding, however you enforce consequences will be a fight. And you have to somehow find it in you to keep fighting and show her that you’re in charge. As you’ve said, she’s off to school next year — if you can’t handle her now it’s only going to be harder when she’s 4, when she’s 5, when she’s a teen etc.

Is she only like this at home? How is she in other settings (preschool, nursery, etc)?

You’ve really lost control of a three year old? Doesn’t she take any notice of you at all? You can’t send her to a different room for ten minutes? ‘Time out’ type thing?

You made the more extreme comment about her (no judgement from me, MN is the right place to vent!) just after a few of us suggested you pick her up and move her physically. Ignore me if this is bollocks, but to me that suggests you are struggling with how very angry she can make you, you’re scared that if you act in any way physically, you will lose control and really hurt her. One of mine used to make me feel such blind rage it frightened me, he was autistic, very bright and articulate, incredibly stubborn and bloody minded…I’m tensing up just thinking about how he used to make me feel.

you need a fucking break and some way of replenishing yourself, and you need some time/strategies to calm yourself down so you can deal with her in a more detached state. I know that is easier said than done.

So maybe it’s too late but consequently Maybe it’s too late after your post but…
soft play - she stays with you while DS continues to play. She will kick off. That’s ok. You ignore and stay firm. She must apologize to DS - for mine it was a hug and kiss and sorry. It can take a while to get this and it’s a learning process to get a heartfelt one. But it will happen.
The TV. She is taken out the room to somewhere very boring. DS continues to watch tv. She can return when calm. Rinse and repeat.
Have you checked she doesn’t have ear pain or any other illness. Sometimes when hungry mine would get more difficult.
Man handling a 3 year old is totally ok. Getting eye contact really helps with being strict. I always felt they could sort of turn off their ears if I didn’t get eye contact.
Reins are really useful if you don’t use a buggy
Try to sort of feel confident in your natural authority as a parent. It helped me to remember my small children were pretty irrational and have no interest in much past getting their own way - especially at 3 years old. And my job was to love them, to socialize them and to show them how to function in society. And that meant I was in charge. It’s also such a great feeling when discipline techniques work. So believe in your natural authority.

You’ve got a golden boy and a ‘bitch’ girl? How predictable… look OP you are going to end up with a very sad and difficult little girl if you don’t get help.

You sound at the end of your tether. Please get help. Ask your GP about a positive parenting course or something like that. I don’t think you’re a bad parent btw - you seem to have lost your way. Please don’t battle on without trying to find some support here xx

I think what I'd do is turn off the tv and immediately take her brother out the room and do something nice he enjoys in a 1:1. Just say dd - you hurt your brother and we don't hurt each other in this house. No one hits. Then when she comes out and wants to join in then say that's fine but you expect her to apologise to her brother first as hurting each other is banned. Rinse and repeat.

You don’t have to wrestle and fight a 3 year old, what is she the Incredible Hulk?! Just tuck her between your legs and put your arms around her if you need to restrain her out of the house. Indoors you put her in another room and close the door, if she comes out she is put back in - 100 times if necessary. But before any of that happens she needs a clear stern warning, with you at her face height. If you don’t get a grip on her behaviour now then good luck for the future!

She's a 3 year old girl. I have one. They are the literal embodiment of the antichrist. She will grow out of it.

This

Yikes

So you need to go through some pain but it’ll work. So in the play area scenario, you take her by the hand and you tell her forcefully (not shouting but in a serious strong voice) that if she can’t play nicely then she comes to sit with you. If she runs off you bring her back. If it takes 20 times then it takes 20 times. But don’t give up. I know people on MN hates on Supernanny, but she demonstrated this very well. You have to show them you mean it.

Thanks. I do feel like we’ve hit a difficult stage. I have been quite low lately as it’s hard not to blame yourself. It isn’t that he’s golden boy at all, he can be very challenging on his own way but it’s upsetting to see one child hurting the other. He really hurt himself when he fell which I accept she didn’t intend but then she’s laughing her head off when he’s lying hurt and upset.

Thank you. It is partly that I feel absolutely furious but it is also that genuinely I think a child, even a small one, who is really fighting back, requires quite some physical force to keep them in one place and OK, you sometimes have to use that level of force (like you might yank them back from something bf dangerous) but not as a sanction for shoving or something.

Maybe try avoiding the park for a bit unless you have your dp with you - then if she kicks off you can get him to carry her home and you stay with DS (or vice versa). I had a 'willful' dd and honestly, sometimes I'd be carrying her over my shoulder in a fireman's lift to get her out of the playground. She also went through quite a long phase of being mean to her big brother. It's very upsetting and something that no one warns you about when you have a second child. She did outgrow it eventually but it's hard to manage because you can't force her to like him.
What you can do is plan how you will manage her. So even if you have to sit on her bedroom floor with your back against the door to stop her escaping, while she screams blue murder, that's what happens as a consequence. Get a baby gate across her door if you can, so you can put her to bed early if she's naughty. Or there's no bedtime story - whatever consequence she would feel.
The hard part is remaining calm in the face of what will be several almighty strops when she experiences consequences. Always link the punishment to the behaviour but not in a way that makes her blame her brother, more linking it to not being unkind or not doing as she's been asked. Eventually she'll get the point that she loses out.
DS needs to see you tackling this. Try to get some support to back you up - it's easier if there are two of you so you can take it in turns and get some space from it.

FWIW, my dd and son are really close now they are older, so it does improve.

You can pick her up and put her in a buggy OP.. And pick her up to move her into another room..She needs to learn that actions have consequences otherwise she'll continue to terrorise the household.

@tripleginandtonic she does not have a buggy! I don’t know how common it is for three year olds to habitually use pushchairs but we haven’t used ours for many, many months. My older child also probably last used his at two and a half. And even if she did have a buggy and I could get her in it without a horrible fight involving grabbing her arms and shoving and throwing and pushing I have no idea how she’d stay in it. She’d be absolutely demonic.

don’t have a dp.

Can you not take her into the hallway and close the tv room door so you are not wrestling her - she may well try and attack you or force the door but you are still stronger than her and if you ignore her you will hopefully only have a few iterations of this before she gets the message

my dd would not stay away if told to/naughty step etc so I did do the standing in the hall with her so DS could do what he was doing

It wouldn’t work with the layout of the house unfortunately. She’d be through the other door as I blocked one.

Hopefully it is a phase but it is an extremely unpleasant one.