DH and I don’t agree - reassessing 8yo for SEN?

[Veryoverwhelmedmummy]

I’ve posted recently about my 8 yo being hard work. Mostly big emotions, that can turn into 30-60 min screaming and crying fits. Sometimes with hitting and kicking. It took us 40 minutes to get out the door this morning because…I don’t even remember what. He was mad about something, punched me, kicked the cupboard, threw a shoe at me and DH, and screamed the house down. To be fair, that doesn’t happen often but perhaps a couple of times per month? He can also be so lovely and kind, and whilst he can have normal sibling conflict with DD (3), he’s never violent with her. (Though he does get mad at her sometimes and shout in her ear.) His behaviour is predictably worse when tired, hungry, etc. We’ve had a busy past month with not a lot of down time and lots of change happening (grandfather unwell, DD moving school, etc)

He was bullied as a young child (5-6 years) and had always been quite cheerful previous to that. He had 1+ years of therapy to work through his trauma. We also had an assessment where no ASD/ADHD was found but he does have an extremely high IQ.

I really struggle with his behaviour (in addition to big emotions he can also be defiant and cheeky; not always but sometimes, and much more with me (mum) that with DH). School have said he’s doing brilliantly and completely age-appropriate. I wonder if he’s holding it all in at school and unleashing at home.

What my googling and mumsnetting has lead me to believe is that perhaps he actually does have some neurodiversity (I understand high IQ/giftedness is its own sort of ND) like ASS or ADHD. But DH becomes a bit irritable with me if I mention it, he says I’m pathologising DS, and the professionals say his behaviour is age-appropriate. What benefit is there to having a diagnosis? Is it worth pursuing a reassessment?

Have you tried any screening tools like these:
https://psychology-tools.com/test/cast

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=autismhampshire.org.uk/assets/uploads/Child.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwim8OisiJyXAxU-VUEAHYhrC6cQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1cnGFSm5eZTsXijZiUT2sW

My audhd child was diagnosed with adhd in year 3 and autism in year 6, I genuinely don't think that the autism diagnosis could have been done any earlier because it's hard to tell in some children what is just slightly quirky behaviour and what all builds up to a picture of autism. We can now look back at little things when she was a toddler and realise they were autistic traits, but at the time they just wouldn't have been enough.

Honestly, I think we can see what we want to see and I think children can become what we perceive them to be.

So in brief, I agree with your DH. I think I would be very wary of joining Facebook groups. Frequently, they are echo chambers (a bit like MN but more so) and as much as they can provide support there’s also validation there too.

I agree with DH. If DS is high IQ you will need to adjust to accomodate. Are you in contact with other families with similar children? Are school supporting and challenging him enough? Yes he is likely to have a spiky profile with emotion regulation lagging behind his learning, but there is nothing in your description suggestive of autism or ADHD - which btw have already been ruled out. What are recommendations from assessment on how to support DS?

How did your DS take to moving, how old was he?

I think some parenting classes might be very helpful for you.
When he asked you not to put the item on the desk, did you ask where he would like you to put it? Or did you carry on and put it on the desk, thus prompting the outburst? When very bright children don't feel listened to, they do become very frustrated but aren't mature enough to express their frustration verbally.
A highly regarded expert in the field has told you your DS is not ND, so now you need to change your parenting style to become less confrontational. If he did have a diagnosis, you would have to change your approach, too.

@Pearlstillsinging thank you. Well, I put it in the desk and he sort of simultaneously started screaming. It wasn’t that he first asked me (nor that he first shouted at me) and I ignored him; it all just happened at once. To make matters more complicated, I grew up in quite a dysfunctional family, lots of shouting and terrible/absent parents. So if someone shouts at me I have a massive fight or flight, sometimes both. So I freeze up, say please don’t talk like that, but he keeps shouting. It’s then hard for me to know, do I reinforce the boundary of not shouting and try to encourage him to ask me “mummy can you not put it on my desk, please, I don’t want my artwork to get squished” or do I just respond to his heightened emotions and do what he says, regardless of how he communicates? I would love a parenting coach but I don’t know how to find one!

@DidAnyoneSeeMyGlassess thank you, this is a helpful perspective. Interestingly his emotional intelligence was also well beyond his years, more like a teenager. But then yes he certainly lacks the vocabulary to communicate the complexities and depth of his emotions.

I wish I had a better understanding of him and “gifted” children. Happy to hear of any resources, if anyone knows of any!

Wow 2 whole children and you know it all? Guess what - everyones different. I have two children. One went through a phase of tantrums and the other didn’t. Both perfectly “normal” now.

It’s perfectly normal behaviour. Everyone is different.

The benefits of a diagnosis are getting a broad and reasonably in depth understand of DS’ issues. Having spent years as an adult ‘diagnosing’ my autism, I finally had an assessment and I was stunned at what the professionals assessing me could find out in a few hours the report was incredibly illuminating.

If DS’ behaviour is clinically significant (and it sounds like it could be) it needs pathologising so you can understand properly what is happening and then you will know how to help him. The thing is, ND brains do not respond the same as NT brains so you need different strategies. You need to work with the person’s brain and not against it but to do tbat you need to understand his issues.

It is a massive disadvantage to be ND and undiagnosed. Life is already more stressful but at least if you are you diagnosed you can avoid the issues you know about and thus avoid some of the stress. Plus you are likely to be able to get support - i’’m also very bright (was top end of grammar school in most subjects) but if I was school kid today with an autism diagnosis, I would have got extra help with essay-writing, and I would have done even better. I was worried about failing English Language and Literature, despite being top in virtually everything else and putting in massive amounts of effort.

I may not know it all, but I certainly know that the type of behaviour the OP is describing ( frequent hour long temper tantrums triggered by some really minor incident!) is not normal behaviour for an 8-year-old! It does the OP no favours to pretend that it is.

It’s kind of normal for us - but we have kids with ND! But in general I do not think most kids are behaving like this…

Yes agreed….. DC2 completed school, including A-Levels, without anyone once noticing their dyslexia, ADHD and autism. They were intelligent, well-behaved and conscientious and so so anxious.

He got support at primary school to prevent him from being overwhelmed, reducing tantrums at home. His secondary school is a special school, and he’s on tack for 7/8 across the board for gcse. We have a meltdown maybe once a term, if that.

It’s really not normal behaviour in a NT child from an otherwise happy well adjusted home.

I think normal and average get confused a lot.

I’d agree your average child this age won’t behave like this, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t normal or that it’s a sign of SEN. It is more likely a sign of needing extra support somewhere.

I have 4 children and work with children this age every day.This is not normal behaviour but that in itself doesnt mean a special need.

Yes I absolutely agree with this. It is a sign that the child is struggling. A school mum went through similar which started to escalate when her DD was about 6. I think it was a slow burner and the child was always a bit difficult but it ended up with her kicking and screaming outside school every morning and then once she went into the class it was like someone flicked a switch and it was like nothing had happened. She ended up going to a few sessions with a child psychologist on a referral from her GP who gave the dd some great strategies for coping when she felt overwhelmed. The mum was also great and was very open that she was struggling with her DDs behaviour and she certainly wasn’t brushing it off as okay and something that she’ll just grow out of.

What assessment did he have? Full assessment or just screening checklist?

When my daughter was 6 we saw a paediatrician at the local hospital as I was struggling so much with her sporadic tantrums (she was adopted and suffered early neglect - it was hugely challenging and I was overwhelmed). I specifically asked about adhd and he told me no way, that an adhd kid would be jumping off the walls, rummaging through his briefcase etc. But I persisted so he gave me the adhd questionnaire to complete at home and I sent it back to him. I later got a letter saying she didn't meet the threshold for adhd.

We were kept under paediatrics and had quarterly consultations. A year later, he had moved on and we saw a woman. She immediately suggested adhd assessment and I told her she had been assessed already. Puzzled, she looked in my daughter's file and found the questionnaire I had filled in - and it hadn't been scored. She scored it in front of me - it scored off the scale for adhd!!

The other guy just didn't believe she had adhd, patronised me....

A few years later I asked school about an ehc plan. They said they would have the ed psych see her. I was given a date for this. Afterwards I was told she hadn't found any issues. I thought she had been assessed and asked for a copy of the assessment, which is when I discovered she hadn't been assessed at all but had been viewd through a window for 5 minutes while the Ed psych was in school seeing another pupil. I was particularly astonished by this as everyone knew my big concern was how well she masked.

Later a Speech and language assessment recorded all manner of difficulties but signed her off. Subsequently she was diagnosed with a clinical Speech and language disorder and went to a speech and language specialist school.

So I am wary of diagnoses, especially in the younger years. I would always keep an open mind. These professionals are not infallible.

OP, if you are still worried, it would make sense to have him assessed by a sensory integration therapist/ OT, ed psych and/or Speech and Language therapist. They will all be able to pick up concerns which might suggest further investigation. For example, an ed psych assessment suggested adhd in my other daughter because she could not wait for a bell before moving her playing piece during a game. The ed psych wasn't diagnosing it but raised it as something we might want to explore.