DH and I don’t agree - reassessing 8yo for SEN?

[Veryoverwhelmedmummy]

I’ve posted recently about my 8 yo being hard work. Mostly big emotions, that can turn into 30-60 min screaming and crying fits. Sometimes with hitting and kicking. It took us 40 minutes to get out the door this morning because…I don’t even remember what. He was mad about something, punched me, kicked the cupboard, threw a shoe at me and DH, and screamed the house down. To be fair, that doesn’t happen often but perhaps a couple of times per month? He can also be so lovely and kind, and whilst he can have normal sibling conflict with DD (3), he’s never violent with her. (Though he does get mad at her sometimes and shout in her ear.) His behaviour is predictably worse when tired, hungry, etc. We’ve had a busy past month with not a lot of down time and lots of change happening (grandfather unwell, DD moving school, etc)

He was bullied as a young child (5-6 years) and had always been quite cheerful previous to that. He had 1+ years of therapy to work through his trauma. We also had an assessment where no ASD/ADHD was found but he does have an extremely high IQ.

I really struggle with his behaviour (in addition to big emotions he can also be defiant and cheeky; not always but sometimes, and much more with me (mum) that with DH). School have said he’s doing brilliantly and completely age-appropriate. I wonder if he’s holding it all in at school and unleashing at home.

What my googling and mumsnetting has lead me to believe is that perhaps he actually does have some neurodiversity (I understand high IQ/giftedness is its own sort of ND) like ASS or ADHD. But DH becomes a bit irritable with me if I mention it, he says I’m pathologising DS, and the professionals say his behaviour is age-appropriate. What benefit is there to having a diagnosis? Is it worth pursuing a reassessment?

i agree with DH. A couple of tantrums a month at that age wouldn’t be a cause for concern for me. I would monitor. If it gets worse then seek assessment.
It seems to me you are the one with the issues if you “really struggle with his behaviour” which is pretty normal kids stuff. Defiant and cheeky is perfectly normal. IMO you need to learn to relax.

Thank you for this perspective. Would you say a 60 minute screaming, crying, shouting and punching, kicking furniture, and throwing things in normal for that age? (He is our oldest so I have no comparison). DD by contrast is very obedient and rule following and polite.

I suggest you join some Facebook closed /private groups for parents of asd kids. You don't need a diagnosis to join. Just search on Facebook using the words you think are most relevant. You can learn a lot from these groups. You are clearly dealing with extreme and unpleasant behaviour and you deserve decent support x

@Arran2024 tha k you, do you have any suggestions? What are the benefits of pursuing a diagnosis? When I talk to professionals they seem to think I’m mad, classing this as age-appropriate, children are annoying. And yet when I post here people seem to think there is some ND. He was evaluated by a highly regarded psych who also specialises in 2E children, who said there were no signs of ADHD or ASD.

Yes it can be perfectly normal phase they go through and grow out of.

I have a 7 year old and we don’t get those kind of tantrums. There are some big emotions but it tends to be something that we can talk through rather than the emotional outbursts you describe. I don’t think there’s a need necessarily to put a label on his behaviour but I do wonder if maybe there’s some additional support that he might need. You mentioned therapy in the past sense but it might be that he needs to revisit it or some other kind of professional support.

I don’t think there’s enough evidence there to think ND. He would be unlikely to get a diagnosis if there isn’t evidence from school and a psych has said that he presents NT.
can you refer to early help in your area?

To me that’s not normal age appropriate behaviour for a child of his age. Definitely as a pp suggested look at joining some online groups to get advice from parents who are experienced in dealing with this. This is very common behaviour with some autistic children. It sounds like he is masking at school and then it all comes out at home which is his safe space and with you who is the person he feels closest to. My son has autism so I’ve attended a few parenting courses and this behavior comes up quite a lot.

I would be surprised if people on here are making a better judgement that a professional that actually met him.

That is NOT normal, age appropriate behaviour at all. You need to try to get help for your child.

@MCF86 thank you, that's also what I wonder about. Everyone but me seems to be able to get on with him. (To be fair DH is sometimes on the receiving end of tantrus but generally it's directed at me.) School say he's happy, has friends, etc. And yet when I bring it up here everyone seems to say SEN. I can't convince DH do do more testing (and wonder what the benefit is?) but I also can't go on like this. I'm really feeling quite trapped and desparate.

What was he bullied for previously? Sounds like masking.
For those asking, a diagnosis is actually extremely helpful for a child. Research shows how much it helps them mentally.

@stichguru thank you, yes I worry about how it must be for DS. This morning he called sweetly out from bed, "Mummy is it time to get up now?" and when I went to his room with his folded laundry, he shouted at me, don't put that on my desk, don't put it there, don't don't don't! Came down from his loft bed and smacked it off the desk, and ran back to bed. I told him that was not acceptable behaviour but it just went downhill from there. Dawdling and not getting dressed, really having to drag him through breakfast, fighting brushing his teeth, and finally a massive tantrum with shouting, screaming, hitting, punching, throwing a shoe at me and then DH, kicking the cupboard repeatedly. DH said he would have consequences for the behaviour and he just kept shouting "no consequences, no consequences." I was just knackered by it all and could hardly focus at work today. When I collected him after school, he was sunny, ran to me with a big hug and a "Mummy!!!!" I asked him to talk to me about why he was so angry this morning and he refused, but said it wouldn't happen again so we didn't need to talk about it.

It will help him to understand himself and not feel like he is ‘wrong’. It’ll br very important for his future mental health.

Is DH quite old fashioned?
these days SEN isnt stigma, it’ll just mean some support!

I also worry about the effects on DD. Whilst DH and I were busy intesively parenting DS for 40 minutes during the tantrum, she's left alone. She's very sunny, calm, and cooperative (even for her age) so will just get on with things and get herself dressed, etc.. But I don't want her to think her big brother is setting a good example and I don't know about normalising his behaviour.

@Newsenmum thank you. No he's not particularly old fashioned but we've moved abroad and i think he's concerned that any label will mean DS must go to special education. He was already labelled as "gifted," and the profile here fits a lot of DS's quirks (big emotions, strong feelings of fairness, extremely clever.)

My oldest had similar at that age. We now have a diagnosis of ASD, and otherwise a happy, healthy child doing well in school. His needs are met now, and it was an absolute game changer.

Well, professionals often get it wrong, especially with younger children.

I have two children who were both misdiagnosed when young.

My elder daughter was not diagnosed with autism until she was 15, despite having seen a whole load of professionals over the years.

My younger daughter was diagnosed with autism aged 8 but school teachers refused to believe it as she didn't fit their stereotyped idea of what an autistic child looks like.

A lot of children mask and their autism isn't obvious until they can no longer mask.

OP, you don't need to pursue a diagnosis right now, just look for support with the behaviour. I would also suggest you look into a type of autism called Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome.

I am shocked at people suggesting that violent temper tantrums lasting to 30-60 minutes are normal behaviour for an 8-year-old. That certainly wasn't my experience of parenting two DC.

How old was he when he was assessed? Because that kind of behaviour might have been within the realms of normal for a 5yo but to persist at 8yo would then indicate an emotional developmental delay that is a hallmark of ND.

I would seek a second opinion.

I would also think about OCD. What triggers the outbursts? The only one you have explained is when he asked if it was time to get up and then panicked over his laundry being put on his desk. That has me wondering about OCD. A child with just ASD or ADHD wouldn’t have a concept of only getting up/out of bed at a special time and likely wouldn’t care about laundry being put in the ‘wrong’ place to the point of rushing over and removing it. Has the bullying made him feel like if things don’t go perfectly, then something bad will happen to him?

OCD is comorbid with ND so that might have made it hard for the earlier assessor to see the full picture.

Obviously youve mentioned one instance which to me does not sound normal for 8 mainly the punching and throwing things.
ASD
does he have friends
does he get invited to play dates
have a best friends
can he ask adults things?
is he rigid about timetables or other things
only interested in his interests
Presumably the getting out the house was to school? Is he anxious about school
or when teachers change
or xmas or birthdays
sensory issues
adhd
how is he at school or clubs
is he concentrating in class

An asd kid will often struggle to sleep if theres something different coming up eg xmas, birthday, change of class

dont assume school would notice.
my eldest is audhd and the school couldnt see adhd and saw autism only when the ed psych said.
in sure my youngest is one or other now age 11. Weve had increasing anxiety, huge loss of friendships but no argument, stopped doing sport, onset of ocd behaviour around 8.

Thank you all for the opinions. To answer some of the questions:

• He has loads of friends and is often invited to play dates, I hear from other parents that he's lovely
• He's brilliant in clubs and swimming lessons, can be a bit shy at first but easily joins the group and gets on with them
• He has a couple of best friends, a few boys from his class
• Not sure what you mean about whether he can ask adults things?
• He is not at all rigid about timetables or anything else, really
• Can be deeply interested in things but has many interests, none of them particularly peculiar for an 8 yo boy (Lego, space, science, Guiness facts, Harry Potter, Star Wars, that sort of thing). But he'll happily play Sylvanian families, dolls, pretend with DD, can do crafts or outdoor play endlessly. Not too keen on sports but enjoys cycling and swimming.
• He doesn't seem to be anxiuos about school, teacher said he is relaxed and doing well, having fun with friends, focussed well on work and finishes it without prompting, shares nicely, etc.
• "Transitions" is something I've read about with ND, we do notice he gets a bit dysregulated at times, for example the week after returning to school from summer holidays, the week before winter holiday.
• He likes to tie his shoes very tightly, other than that no sensory issues I'm aware of

Regarding the OCD with the clothes, he has a new desk and he was building something on it recently, perhaps he didn't want me to disturb it and thought I would crush it. But he literally flew off the handle screaming and smacked it to the ground. That seems so outsized to me. But I don't have anything to compare it to.

@herewegoagainonwednesday what sorts of support did you have and how are his needs better met now?