Struggles with "gifted" 8 yo boy

[Veryoverwhelmedmummy]

I'm not quite sure how to formulate my question. DS is wickedly clever but also so much work. We moved abroad when he was 4, DD was born shortly thereafter, and he then started reception. He was always an extremely happy baby and got on well with others at nursery in the UK. But when he started school here, he was bullied and his personality completely changed. He was frequently angry, withdrawn, had toileting accidents, etc. I Felt like I didn't know him anymore. Because of all of the behavioural changes and not doing well in school, we had him assessed (at 6 years) and it was determined he has a massive IQ (>140) and no signs of AdHD or ASD. The terminology they use here is "gifted" and he does tick many of those boxes (very clever, big emotions, sensitive to fairness and justice, wants to know rationale for everything.)

But he's just so much work. He is 8 next week and we can't seem to get on top of the toilet accidents. He's been seen by a paediatrician, physio, and a paediatric urologist. They started him on medication (First for constipation, later for overactive bladder) but it still happens, especailly when he is stressed or overwhelmed, or goes into his head and his mental world. I don't know how to help him anymore. As he gets older and I see the differences between him and DD, I wonder whether there is more going on with his development than just giftedness, but when we talk to professionasl they seem to think it's all within normal age bounds. But I ask myself when would we reconsider assessment? DH is much more patient with him and quite content to not pursue further testing (and I reckon he's right, if I look at the questionnaires I still can't tick enough boxes to get even close to a diganosis) but still he seems so, I don't know, quirky? And I wonder if as he grows older he will actually grow out of some of these things, or whether they will become more pronounced.

I don't think it would hurt to have a 2nd assessment. I do have a friend who's child wasn't able to be diagnosed at age 3 but now has been at 6. My DDs are both Autistic with high IQs, both had glowing reports throughout primary school, both had friends and high attendance, one did a lot of extra curriculars, good at sport. But one still had occasional toileting accidents well past toilet training (interoception difficulties). And one was extremely hard work behaviourally at your son's age.

Sensory issues should form part of the assessment for Autism, not really for ADHD though.

Does he have any underlying anxiety at all that he might he masking? I know this goes hand in hand with toilet accidents. Maybe he feels under pressure to be 'clever' or feels scrutinised?

As mentioned above, maybe step back and let him be himself. I'm not sure why you would even think you are a bad mum. Nothing you have suggested would show that. You do sound a little over concerned about your child though, so maybe let go of the worrying as children can pick up on anxiety.

Please let me know if you find the answer. My son (a year or two ahead of his peers so not genius level gifted but certainly bright) has just started Year 1 and I now get reports on his bad behaviour every single day. We were refused an ADHD diagnosis in Reception because he was ‘fine’ at school 🙄

I would get a second opinion on autism diagnosis to be honest based on everything you're saying he ticks so maybe boxes and another professional may diagnose him, especially a couple of years after the initial appointment as it is.

I don't think leaving it to the last minute to go to the loo is that unusual. My DS did it for years but eventually grew out of it. He'd tell me 'I don't need the loo, I'm dancing' 🙄.

When he's having a 45 minute tantrum what are you doing? Are you feeding it with attention or do you send him to his room or walk away so he can learn to self regulate? My DD could wind her emotions up over nothing and she'd need time alone to calm down. Giving the tantrum attention just fueled it.

It is your job as a parent to teach your children how to behave. You shouldn't be comparing them, they will be hard work at different stages. If you model good behaviour your son will probably be a great teenager and adult. He sounds pretty fab already, he's just a normal energetic 8 year old.

In all honesty he sounds like my daughter who was eventually diagnosed with ASD at age 11, after 3 or 4 years of me saying "is it a possibility" and everyone around me saying definitely not. And by sounds like - genuinely every aspect, down to the toilet issues.

She is just very good at masking, and only really relaxed it around me. In her case she had a full on crisis at the end of y6/ beginning of y7 that led to her having to have a term out of school to recover. The trouble with masking is that it's hard to keep it up long term, and the stress of maintaining the mask causes anxiety that can lead to crashes.

Is it worth re-assessment... probably eventually. In my opinion, before you get to crisis point. But it can be very hard when noone else has a "problem". Until it was a problem for school, they just didn't want to know at all.

You’re right that a 45 min tantrum about dinner is not “normal” at 8. The professionals and teachers won’t see any of that though because I’m sure (like mine) he behaves beautifully at school. It’s ASD!

some people thought my eldest couldn’t be autistic because they were so articulate and had a reading age of 9.5 at age 4. People have certain stereotypes in their head and don’t put two and two together.

Hi, we have had two assessments with wildly different results. I really think it depends on the psychologist and your child that day. Our first one (age 3) said clearly autistic. Our second one (age 4) said maybe neurodivergent, not autistic, extremely gifted. If i were really to average out his behaviour I think he is somewhere in the middle. If I were you, I would push for another assessment. The private one we did vs the first funded one was much more in depth and helpful for us. Get the intel, get ways to help him. It isn't fair to have a 8 year old soiling themselves. They will be socially ostracised at some point, and given the intellect, they're going to struggle to fit in with their peers generally.

For what its worth, my DH is the replica of my DS, had an IQ of 158 at school age testing and didn't want any type of early intervention or assessment for our DS. When he had to sit and listen to the psychologist the second time around something really hit home and he finally understood why this was helpful and meaningful. This isn't about your DH, he needs to realise this. You need to set your son up for lifelong success.

There is a FB group for parenting gifted children which has a lot of this content btw and you might find useful.

You are right. 8 year olds are not normally this much work.

Two of my DCs were identified as 'gifted'. There were no tantrums and no toileting accidents past the age when these are more likely (3).

I second the suggestion of sensory integration assessment and possible therapy.

Other than that, have you tried a timer to get him to the loo every half hour? How does he respond when interrupted while focusing on a project at home? How does he respond to transitions in school (math to art to lunch, etc)? It is possible he masks in school.

Does he get regular snacks after school? A snack every hour, for instance, and a drink of water

As well as the sensory integration therapy, I'd get him assessed for autism.

I'm guessing your H does little or none of the mopping up after the accidents, or the handling of wet clothes. It's nice that he has an intuitive grasp of DS's needs, but that won't be available for DS always. DS needs to learn better ways of coping than 45-minute hissy fits if he is frustrated or hangry or whatever sets him off.

I’m glad you didn’t take offence at my comment - there was certainly none intended.

It’s not the same but my 5yo has recently started having massive meltdowns, totally all consuming hour long meltdowns. He’s never been a particularly emotional child so it’s been baffling. My tendency is to try and rationalise his behaviour, my OH is much better at accepting. I’m not saying it’s the same as your situation because it sounds like your child is a more generally complicated profile but I suppose I’m making the point that some of us (me included) are tempted to try and explain and rationalise when we should focus on dealing with the child in front of us.

Parenting is hard, I think I sometimes do a good job but I often look back on the way I dealt with a situation and acknowledge I could have done better, could have been more patient, could have modelled better behaviour. I do keep trying to be better though and it sounds like you are too.

just to add, I do think when you have a genuinely very ‘easy’ child the contrast does make things seem worse (again, not diminishing the genuine issues your DS has).

Sounds so like my son! The energy of a gifted 8 year old boy is exhausting!! My son is now 9 but a different child since changing school and adapting diet - food allergies and regular food. Probably every 2/3 hours.
Have days where I can manage him and days when I really struggle. When getting him to do things, he has to have one instruction at a time!
I found reading there's still no such thing as naughty by Kate Silverstone really helpful in understanding his behaviour how to change mine!

There's a theme in your posts of you feeling inadequate in some way to be his parent. He's who he is, he's been investigated by the Drs and there's nothing alarming going on. But you're left feeling not enough for him.

Have you considered having psycotheraputic parent work to improve your understanding of him, how you react to him, and what he triggers in you?

It doesn’t seem like his toileting issues are particularly bad at all. He never has an accident at school. He went the entire 6 weeks of summer holidays without a single accident.
and he only has the odd accident whilst on home environment and very focussed on something.

This sounds so normal. And I really mean that - so normal!

What country are you in now, and what's their general take on neurodivergence?

You say he shows no traits of autism or ADHD, and then go on to list several.

He sounds normal to me, the toileting issues seem really minor. Literally everyone has some sort of sensory issue with something, DD will flat refuse to wear anything even slightly scratchy, I won’t buy certain plates etc etc. none of us have autism. The temper tantrums from a bright child who needs to let off steam sometimes even if they are a bit long also don’t seem particularly odd to me. I have a bright 7yr old and a lot of this is similar but with more issues with inter personal relationships not easy personality at all but I’m not sure this is worth trying to go through different experts to get an autism diagnosis. What exactly would that achieve for a child who seems to be on the whole functional.

And you say you never bet miss a party or a trip out but then have to factor in down time for him. Again…. Totally normal!!! He’s very young. And he gets over tired and consequently ratty when he doesn’t have sufficient chill time (don’t we all 😆)

OP, regardless of the giftedness, I would advise you to parent him as if he is AuDHD anyway. (Whatever the tests/questionnaires may or may not say) So you approach parenting completely differently to what you may assume is “normal” parenting. Sounds like he’s fab at masking, especially at school, but the wheels are coming off a bit ans he gets older and you are his safe space to let it all out. See if that makes a difference. Good luck! We have a “gifted” child with AuDHD annd dyslexia and it’s hard. Hugs.

@Veryoverwhelmedmummy

We have a 'gifted' high IQ "different" son and they are honestly a whole different ball game.

We had the extraordinary luck to leave near, hear about and get him into a one-of-a-kind class that caters for this sort of kid. The teachers are specialized, have access to a pile of resources that most teachers don't seek out and have experience. It's turned our younger son around. (His IQ is at the lowest end of high, but there are children there of 140 - 160 + )

Giftedness is weird; in many (not all) of the children it seems to create almost a different sort of brain to normal and while there can be autistic traits, not every gifted child is autistic by a loooong shot, apparently.

High sensitivity and high exitability is entirely normal in these kids.

I don't think that as a society we've really come to grips with the needs of gifted children yet. Sometimes, unfortunately, because they aren't 'seen' and understood, they become alienated and angry or explosive.

I haven't read it but the teachers at the Duckling's school referenced Dabrowski quite a bit https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dabrowskis-Theory-Positive-Disintegration-Mendaglio/dp/0910707847

The most constructive thing that seems to help parents (apparently) is re-framing their expectations from 'what's normal' to 'what are the characteristics of my child and how can we support him'.

High IQ aside, he sounds very like DC1, who is diagnosed autistic and dyspraxia (DCD) but we strongly suspect AuDHD (his masking means he doesn’t show the ADHD behaviours at school and presents as very stereotypically autistic). He masks heavily at school and in fact to a degree around everyone apart from me. His behaviour at home also significantly declined at 4, following school starting, a new sibling and then Covid, and we had a dreadful few years.

All professionals and extended family said he was just anxious, or the problem was that I was anxious, or that we needed to be simultaneously firmer and more relaxed in our discipline, and had we considered [insert parenting technique like a star chart]? He was diagnosed at almost 9 and it was not in any way a borderline diagnosis.

I would say if it is autism, a) it won’t go away and differences will become more apparent with age, and b) there is no “treatment” but you could certainly parent him as though he has it without causing any harm. I’d echo the suggestion above about getting some advice around sensory issues - the occupational therapist assessment leading to his DCD diagnosis was the best money we spent as that was impacting him much more than we realised. We focus on keeping him as regulated as possible, which means he is less anxious, which reduces difficult behaviours.

You sound like a great mum who finds herself overwhelmed right now. I can't speak to any diagnosis or experience of parenting a very gifted child, so please take or leave my comment if it's not helpful to you.

Could there be a question of "fit" here? E.g. a sporty child in a bookish family would seem overly boisterous, whereas a bookish child in an outdoorsy family may seem too quiet. Your husband may seem more patient with him as because their temperaments are similar. You are not wrong or failing if you get fed up with his behaviour, if it not a good fit for your temperament. Children have their own personalities and some parts we love, others we like, and some parts we dislike. I'm sure they feel the same way about us too!

Keep going. You sound thoughtful and caring as you try to find a way through this. Part of the resolution maybe accepting differences.

He may or may not be autistic. But extremely high intelligence is very similar in terms of life experience. Every day he goes to school knowing he is different to the others. He probably spends a lot of time masking to fit in, as things are so easy he is bored, when those around him find the same work challenging. He may not find other children share his interests. Children capable of the same academics as him would be much older, so he wouldn't fit in with them socially. It must be exhausting holding it all together all day, no wonder there can be out of school explosions and toileting incidents.

Clever kids are hard work…. my oldest is “just” very clever, the youngest is gifted. their brains run at100 miles an hour.
Both now go to selective schools, and it has been the best thing ever - they couldn’t articulate it in primary (youngest is late primary now), but they were bored silly. there is only so much extension possible in an average ability classroom. And being utterly frustrated 6 hours a day doesn’t lead to a happy life outside school, even if they manage to behave in school..

Hes ticking the boxes for autism. My son has a iq of 144 and he has autism alongside. Please don't call your kid gifted though mine hates it. Puts to much pressure on them.

Have you considered hyperlexia? https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung-rvo1&source=android-browser&q=hyperlexia#lfId=ChxjMe

He sounds a little like my eldest DD, who was assessed as gifted at primary age. Unfortunately, for her the wheels started to come off when she reached secondary and she was diagnosed AuDHD as an adult. She was just about able to mask well enough that it wasn't raised as a possibility during school years, but University and the world of work showed her up as being quite severely affected.

So I'd say just keep an eye on your DS, because if he is on the spectrum anywhere it might not be that noticeable until he's older - but the earlier you can get any help for him if he is, the better. I still feel a lot of guilt towards my DD - that I 'should have known', although tbh she's in her late thirties now and autism was not really quite so widely spoken about when she was young.