Is it normal for an architect to design this much beyond budget? At this stage?

[Meforthree]

Has anyone used an architect for a full renovation project that can give us some advice? We have been in discussion with ours since before buying our property in South London in May. We were clear about budget for the renovation but when she presented us with her predicted costs they were literally nearly four times what we’d said.

We had a big conversation about how this could have happened, and she didn’t really explain that but said she did think we could do the works for just a bit over our original budget so we agreed to that and tried to move forward. But now six weeks later we are trying to really firm up how and what things may cost (she got a projected cost from a basement company that would eat up well over half our budget! For what it’s worth, other basement companies have told me it would be less) and she is now making noises that strongly suggest she is actually still designing speculatively and that we will reduce the scope of the project as and when if we need to. I just asked her outright in an email how it was she thought we could afford the rest of the works if the basement did indeed cost that and she still hasn’t properly answered. I’m so mad, she’s supposed to be designing (broadly speaking) to our budget! AND we’ve already had a serious conversation about this sort of thing..

Am I missing something? Is this normal?
And how easy would it be to switch architects at this point? We’ve already got a pre-app in and we were hoping to get everything moving enough to hit the ground with builders by end of January….

What’s the scope and budget?

Is it actually possible to do the works you want within your budget?

But yes, in my experience anyway, architects always design over budget 😅 they're more interested in the looks and flow than costs! Need the builders to make cost cutting suggestions and then feed back to architect.

Not normal with a good architect, which she clearly isn't.

Put it all in an email laying out that she has clearly not adhered to your clear budget.
Is the budget a realistic one for the spec?
This is very important.

Is she part of a firm?
Is there someone else you can speak to?
I wouldn't trust her not to get you into serious debt.
Have you a quantity surveyor managing the budget?
They usually price the job and control the budget and the architects excessive whims.

Some wanker architects are unable to do a project to budget.
They will ruin you in the process.

Get it all down on paper and insist on a detailed response.
Be very very careful.
I would be reporting her to her professional body if she doesn't shape up.

I believe basement jobs can run well into the couple hundred thousands.

Would rather than not put budget on here but it’s a full house renovation so a lot - dormer windows in loft, basement dig-out, kitchen extension, interior reconfiguration etc.

I've project managed some major works and something I know for sure is that no matter what is said, it will always take 3 times as long and cost at least twice as much.

We are not at that stage yet - we have a pre app in but haven’t got full planning app in yet or gone to tender. But because she has been unclear I have sought advice and priced from other people, including recommended local builders who do think her original pricing is wildly over. My impression is that she is just extremely premium, but it’s more the lack of clarity that bothers me. I just want to be able to ask questions and have them answered clearly! I totally understand that only QS’s can ultimately price projects, but surely an architect shouldn’t be continuing down a road that looks completely implausible without stopping and discussing it with us as soon as possible!

Very keen to hear from anyone who has switched architects at this sort of stage!

Literally NOBODY will care/know who you are. Change the ballpark and a few details - this will help those who have done similar projects to know if you’re being unrealistic, or she is.

and in the meantime you go back to architect and remind them of budget and get them to reconsider their plans and either cost engineer, scale back

oh and get your own estimate from a basement contractor for comparison

is she marking that up? Is there a commission etc they’re paying her?

push back.

4x the budget is a joke. Perhaps that’s the phrase you go back with.

my h would go spare at this, he’s sack her immediately tbh, money isn’t an issue for us in any way shape or form, but a piss take is a piss take and we’d be enraged that someone was chancing it with our money somehow

I think you need to ditch her. She's just not listening to you and you have barely got going yet! The process will not get easier and you need absolutely need to be on the same page.

Cut your losses and find someone who understands the brief.

Presumably you're paying her for her time spent drawing up her well over budget grand designs? I'd sack her and pick someone less 'premium', can the local builder you've been in touch with recommend someone?

No I don’t want to put budget on here (my gut feeling is that she I just used to extremely premium stuff and isn’t adjusting accordingly)
but honestly that’s not what I’m asking about anyway… I’m much more interested in what kind of communication and clarity is normal in this process… and how easy/normal it is to switch architects… very stressed out by the prospect of wasting so much time…

Eish they always do this. You need to manage them tightly as they always bin the budget and then just design the most gorgeous high spec thing that will look incredible on their website. You need to be blunt and explain there is no money tree, budget is a real thing and if you can’t do the project for the budget there will be no project at all!

Nb though basements can have a huge margin of error for works given what they find in survey around soil types, access, foundations, etc etc etc.

Also materials costs are continuing to climb in line with global uncertainty.

If you have paid for her time so far i’d say sack her and take what she’s done so far and give it to a new person with the specific brief to edit to get within budget.

We had similar where our guy had a budget to design to, the quotes came in way more, then he worked with suppliers to redesign / cut our cloth.

But it sounds like you are past this point

It's a shame to feel you've wasted time but if she's not right don't waste more time and money instead of switching now.

Architects are often a bit out of touch with costs and I would expect some tweaks to bring you back to budget but this sounds like she's in dreamland designing something unachievable. You don't want her to design something crazy which you are constantly chipping and reducing you want her to design what you need and can afford!

Have you never seen "Grand Designs", nothing a lot of architects like more than spending somebody else's money. The big question is, if you spend your planned budget plus contingency will that be more than the uplift in value?

We've done a couple of large rennovation projects in London and I have yet to meet a competent architect, let alone one that can stick to budget! Many friends have done similar works and I've still not met anyone who would recommend their architect! This obviously doesn't help you, just trying to reassure you that you're not mad!

Does she work for a firm?

Sigh! Thank you, I strangely do find this comforting, knowing we’re not mad!

Well it is fairly important - if you've asked her to plan for £250k budget to do that work for example, you'd be in fantasy land.

If you've got a budget in the millions, it's doable.

However the costs of digging out a basement, bracing the building including preventing the neighbours slumping, sumps, the use of electric only machinery so as not to poison the workers, bespoke scaffolding for site access if you can't close the pavement or don't have a driveway, use of negative pressure throughout the building to control dust if you're in a borough where that's the norm (Chelsea for example), management or removal of asbestos, provision of welfare units.....quickly blows many a budget.

Hopefully you're in a better position ie accessibility, no need for pressurisation and so on.

Actually one of the things that’s weird and tricky is that I really don’t know if she is designing things we can’t afford.
i have now brought her two other quotes showing that eg basement work could be cheaper (and one of those is from a recommended local builder who knows our street) and she is saying they are very low. 🤷‍♀️ But then she is also (despite me asking very directly) not explaining HOW she expects us to get the work done within budget if indeed the basement costs eat all other budget! 🤷‍♀️ It’s so wildly illogical and confusing…

Definitely not saying budget isn’t important! It’s just not what I’m asking about here…

This was normal in my experience of trying to get an architect to design an extension 10 years ago. They were charged based on a percentage of what the overall build would cost, so they had an incentive to be cheeky fuckers. I went with a technical drawer in the end. (I’m not sure of his exact title but he did the same work as an architect for a fraction of the price).

Then he hen biuildrfs came out to quote a few of them had the same pisstaking attitude and quoted for things that weren’t in the plans. One builder felt I needed to replace a perfectly good staircase just to bump up his fee.

The whole industry is rigged and it is hard work to find trustworthy architects and builders IME, even when you have local recommendations.

Ours is actually fixed fee - chose them in part for that reason.

She's an architect not a builder, source your own quotes for the work. Generally you tell an architect what you want in terms of a new basement, an extension to provide specific facilities, etc, and they design it and draw it up, hopefully get it checked by a structural engineer if it includes major changes to load bearing elements. How much it will cost is a can of worms, how high a spec for fixtures and fittings, what sort of windows and doors, etc, etc ? Once the plans are done get a few builders to give a quote, if it's too high reduce the scope of the work. She may have a tame builder who gave her a rough quote but if they work on architect designed houses they may be very high spec and expensive.

local builders who do think her original pricing is wildly over

Then get rid of her as she's clearly not competent.

Also if you know she has a preference for extremely premium, and that's not what you want or need, then she's not suitable. You can't trust her to prioritise your budget over her preferences, and that will always be a headache for you.