I have no idea what to call it– mums and society.

[Viewfromthewindow]

Hi all, I'm just ruminating on a discussion I had with a mother at a playgroup this morning. Our current circumstances are very different, but it was similar to what my mum faced when I was growing up in some aspects.

This lady was left by her husband last year, she has 3 young children and he is self employed. She is not receiving hardly anything from him and is struggling to work around 3 young children. She has received some money from their divorce settlement, not a huge sum, but is over the threshold for UC. She's gone from living in what sounds like a lovely home, to being housed in social housing.

It struck a nerve with me, as my mum and I went through similar experiences when I was young, some 30 odd years ago. Of course, it wasn't UC then. We ended up living with my gran, as my mum couldn't afford a house of her own and struggled with childcare for 2 young kids. She made something work but it was a tough time. My dad went on and had 2 more kids and didn't pay a penny towards us.

Everything is so expensive these days. We all would love to believe it would never happen to us. We'd all like to hope our husbands or partners would do the right thing. How this lady is supposed to afford childcare that would support her to financially support 3 children sufficiently is beyond me.

My partner and I have a good relationship (I think), but it seemed so did this lady until hers met a woman he connected with and left her for. I just find it so sad that, from what I experienced as a child, times seem to have not changed so much for single mums. They seem shackled in so many ways. Yes I suppose she could get a mortgage with the money but paying a mortgage and childcare for multiple children, as well as further costs isn't a feasible option. I was actually shocked about how much her social housing costs were. I thought these associations were made to actually help people.

Maybe it's hit a nerve because of my own childhood experiences but I really felt for this woman today. I work full time but know life would be completely different if for any reasons, myself and partner separated. It just highlighted that although people go on about people on benefits, everything when you closer into it is a trap. She said that because she has over a certain amount in savings from the divorce that was given back to her from the sale of the house, she's not applicable for support. It's thrown me into a spin and made me look at my own finances.

Does anyone else feel that no matter which way you go, the government has you by the balls in some way? Between tax, savings etc. I really felt for this lady today and wish I could just do something to help her. You really never know what someone is going through. It's easy for us all to judge a life we don't have, but I know I couldn't have a very decent standard of living on my wages, especially if my partner became and ex who dodges his child support.

Yeah I agree. But I think the title should read "men in society" giving they just up and leave,no enforcement for CMS, no charges for child neglect/ abandonment. But then I sound bitter and I'm sure people will jump on the "not all men" bandwagon or "women should make better choices" one x

Yes, women have always been expected to carry the burden of raising the next generation. They do get the benefit of it too of course, while the men up alone, angry and bitter. Thank god there is still social security with UC etc.

I’m not sure it’s ’the government has us by the balls’ as much as the government does nothing to stop men being absolute feckless shithouses if and when they choose to. The men are the problem.

@Cantgetausername87 Victim blaming is rife, isn't it. Shame we don't all have a crystal ball that others seem to have. I dated a real dick before my now long term partner, he seemed really kind a sincere at first. It was only when I was about 9 months in that I really seen the cracks. Even now, people say what a good guy he is. Anyone can charm, that's how abusers work. Luckily, my partner is nothing like that. Although, people change sometimes I guess. My dad was a great guy until someone 15 years younger showed him attention.

@Summerhillsquare I didn't realise the red tape involved in UC and how it's not available to all single people for various reasons.
@Epicuriouss I definitely think the government contribute to having us by the balls, in many ways.

@Viewfromthewindow specific to your friend

What really jumped out at me from your post is that her ex is self-employed.

I've seen how much a horrible person will be able to hide during a divorce and he was self employed. He didn't get away with it, but it was almost a piece of luck - someone within the friend network had seen him being awarded a particular contract with a very high value

That divorce took about five years to sort

But they had to go after his money, pretty forensically. I don't know how it works if somebody hides money during a divorce, but I hope your friend
got everything she's supposed to have?

It's always 'Women must choose better' rather than 'Men must do better' like it's a foregone conclusion that men can't do better , or worse shouldn't have to.
It's the same with anything where a man treats a woman badly, the conduct of the woman is the first thing that is scrutinised, to the nth degree, to find justification for how she is responsible for his behaviour.

Luckily the childcare years are short and most parents seem to be able to manage working full time with wrap around care, after school clubs etc. I suppose the lesson here is to future proof. Work hard on your career and never give up work or lose your employability if given the opportunity. Men are human like everybody else and can’t always be relied on and sadly it’s the mums who end up with the bigger burden in terms of raising the dc.

So she has over 16k in savings from the divorce? She can spend that as needed for day to day living and when it is low enough she can claim uc.
If is 100k from divorce then that can pay childcare for a few years so she can work full time.
At least she has council home secure rental

Men being ‘human and not being able to be relied upon’ @IveChangedMyMind , is precisely the reason there should be far more stringent penalties for them not paying for their children (hiding income etc).

Society is so set up for men ‘not being able to be relied upon’ it’s a wonder more women are choosing to not have any children at all.

Oh, wait…

Going through something similar myself. It’s not the government as such but misogyny which is what society is based on. Women will always draw the short straw.

@EmeraldRoulette She didn't do great from the divorce but without prying too much, I get the impression him being self employed came about not too long after they separated. Perhaps he had premeditated it in his mind, as child support for three children isn't cheap.

I'm glad in your instance it turned out better, but wow all those years! That can't have been easy at all. The lengths some people will stoop to.

@Maverickess It absolutely is. No matter what, it is always, somehow the woman who is at fault. Pick better. Don't trust anyone. Foretell the future. Don't nag. Don't be in a mood. Don't have kids. The population is dying out because women won't have kids. Have kids but don't complain about not being able to afford them in this astronomical climate. Don't just have one kid, it'll be lonely. Don't have more kids than you can afford. Don't stay with abusive men. Why do women stay with abusive men. Don't be a benefit scrounger. Be at home more with your kids. Your kids come first. Working mums shouldn't be allowed so much time off when kids are ill. The list goes on. How about bring up men to be good people. To do their share. To not bail out on their children.

Well let’s face it, they can’t. And as it stands, they still aren’t expected to take responsibility in the same way in which women are so I’d certainly never stake my livelihood and that of my dc on being supported forevermore. Take care of yourself and don’t give anyone the opportunity to let you down is my advice.

In 2026, having 3 children is a wild decision for anyone to make. Unless you are a multimillionaire in your own right with an extensive support system, it just seems so high risk and incredibly hard work. I know this is no use to your friend who is in the shit now, but I do think people need to think really carefully before having 3,4 or more. I grew up as the eldest of 4 with a deadbeat dad so I am acutely aware of the reality of the situation.

In any case, society can do no more for your friend. This year, it is expected that benefits payments will exceed income tax receipts. The state is totally broke. It’s failing to give basic healthcare even. The Childrens’ father needs to be made to pay. If I were in government, I would have forensic accountants examining the whole finance/life of a man who wasn’t paying a reasonable sum for his kids. There would be no hiding - it would be an intrusive investigation. So many men are doing this and society is paying for their kids.

And I have to say that living with granny does seem like the thing to do here. Because the expenses of running a home these days are astronomical.

@Tutorpuzzle I completely agree. He won't even have them overnight. The youngest are still babies so she's not even entitled to the 30 hours element of childcare just yet. She's had to give up her own, longstanding job because the hours are not suitable for a single parent.

@tiptoptoemaytoe I'm sorry you're in this situation. I hope luck catches up with you and karma for the other.

Yep this is why I made sure I owned my own house, and was financially able to support myself and my kids before I had them.

dh could have walked out at any point and I’d have been able to at least pay my bills for a good few years.

In my case my dad died - you don’t get CMS there. My mum had barely ever worked, so yes, I learned the lesson early.

I've got to go get my wee one from school. Thanks for reading my thoughts guys. I hope it makes us all think of how we respond to people and their circumstances. Perhaps reflect on ourselves too. Life hey. Can make a fool out of all of us in some way.

I am a bit confused by the original post. It is not the Gov's fault that the OP's husband left her with three young children.
Was there any equity in the house?
Were they living in rented accommodation?.
What is hard is paying for what is now known as 'wrap around' care, for before and after school and school holidays.
It sometimes seems to me that the 'really' rich are OK, by this I mean women who are in such good jobs they can afford the childcare, or those at the very bottom, who get UC, and other benefits, etc.
It is usually those in the middle or the 'just about managing' who suffer the most.
Self employed people can often hde their real income (mothers as well as fathers, if the roles were reversed)

I agree, we need to be doing far more to enforce CMS, ensuring it is paid, it is far too easy for men to dodge it if they want to and even when it is paid the amount is quite often a drop in the ocean of what it actually costs to raise a child particularly in the childcare years.

One of my best friends split with her child’s dad last year and he pays the CMS as set out, he earns £29k a year and pays £230 a month in maintenance. Yes it’s better than nothing but when you consider that just the childcare fees for that child are currently £720 a month and that is with tax free childcare & 30 free hours (23 free hours really as spread over the whole year), it really is a pitiful contribution. If she’d had 2 children with him her childcare bill would be double but CMS doesn’t double, it just increases from 12% to 16%, it doesn’t make sense.

It is also why I’m so wary when women give up work to be SAHM, even if you think you have the best relationship, have always been happy & no concerns, even if you have a partner who can comfortably support you to do that and have no financial concerns at the time, it is such a vulnerable position to be in and as you say OP nobody thinks it will happen to them until it does. Taking years away from the workforce, especially with the job market today, makes it really difficult to get back in.

He went self-employed after? Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that would give you a huge amount of protection.

I should've been clearer -it wasn't me. I'm not divorced. I never got married because mixing finances is a big no-no for me

It was something that happened to a friend and genuinely it was a piece of luck that someone was able to provide her with evidence of how much money he was hiding behind his company.

I'm also wondering if there was equity in the house

unfortunately, nothing works the way it should and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got overwhelmed by the legal process and did not end up with everything that they are actually legally entitled to.

Apparently, @milveycrohn , men make up 93% of paying parents in CMS claims, so saying ‘mothers as well as fathers, if the roles were reversed,’ doesn’t really apply, as the roles are vanishingly rarely reversed.

And these are the ones who are actually paying something!

Of course it’s not the government’s fault there are so many feckless men, but they could do much more to punish those that don’t pay up.

I actually have an opposite perspective. We all know that almost half of marriages end in divorce, so it's not a big shock that it could happen to anyone.

Women who choose not to seek some form of career, who decide to have more than two children make themselves dependent and vulnerable. It really isn't rocket science. It's the choices they make.

What do you expect men to do? Give 75% of their income to their ex for many years to come so they can have a decent life whilst they have to wait for their kids to be 20 to do the same?

I had only 2 children but I managed it. Like many others, I worked FT and the kids were in childcare before and after-school clubs. I received zero maintenance. It was that or being on benefits. I wasn't going to teach my kids that sort of life.

They are now adults and both have great careers. It really can be done. I hate how some mothers portray themselves as vulnerable and hopeless. We are not. We can be independent women and do well by ourselves and our kids.

Does anyone else feel that no matter which way you go, the government has you by the balls in some way? Between tax, savings etc.

Why is that the default assumption is that government (or taxpayers to be precise) always have to bail you out?

I don’t disagree that women should be careful not to leave themselves totally dependent on a man, but I’m not sure the comment about “what do you expect a man to do” is accurate.

CMS is set at 12% of salary, after pension, so as I say my friend gets £230 a month in CMS from her child’s dad. Her nursery fees for that child are £720 a month as child has to be in full time to enable her to work full time, and dad does zero overnights or contact. So no, I don’t think dad should give 75% of his salary indefinitely, but I DO think CMS, especially during the expensive childcare years, should be set at an actual meaningful level. His maintenance doesn’t even cover half of the nursery fees nevermind anything else.

Men would make up the majority of CMS paying parents, because generally the mum retains custody.

i know when stepdc wanted to move in with us for a’levels so he could go to a 6th form nearby that he’s got a scholarship for, her immediate reaction was “I’m not paying to have my child taken off me”

I think it’s not only more acceptable for nr mums not to pay, but dads with residency are seen as doubly evil for firstly taking the kids away from mum, and secondarily for making the poor woman pay.

for the few weeks it was up for discussion most of the family were firmly on her side, that dh would be a terrible person if he made her pay CMS. She only worked PT, how would she pay her bills with no CMS coming in and having to pay out? He’d be putting her in the breadline. Dh had a good, FT job, he could afford it.

in the end stepdc decided not to, primarily out of guilt that his mum would have to pay/would stop receiving cms and she convinced him it wasn’t “fair”. That and the emotional guilt about she would miss him too much etc.

not one person saw the irony that dh had been kicked out from his children’s home (her affair) and had been “paying to have his children taken off him” for over 10 years.