Fancy cars for disabled people

[LemaxObsessive]

Motability.

I am sick to absolute death of seeing people saying on various threads, that Motability vehicles are “given” to us disabled people “for free”.

PIP is awarded in 2 separate elements.

1. Daily Living (day to day care needs etc)
2. Mobility

Each element is paid at different rates depending on how affected by your disability you are (and yes, medical evidence is required). However, to be eligible for Motability, you need to be getting the highest rate of the Mobility element. This is currently £77.05 per week (which works out at £308.20 per 4 weeks or £333.88 per month).

When you join Motability you agree for the DWP to give Motability that £77.05 per week instead of it being paid to your bank. If you also receive the Daily Living element of PIP then you will still receive that directly.

You ALSO, in most cases, have to pay an advance payment (AP) for the vehicle. The better the vehicle, the higher the AP. You do not get the AP back.
The £77.05 per week pays for the lease of the car, insurance, roadside assistance, tyres & windshield cover. Disabled people in receipt of the highest rate of the PIP mobility element are already exempt from road tax.

With regards to the ‘fancy’ cars such as BMW, Audi & Mercedes, as you can imagine all of these have a whopping great AP in the multiple thousands of pounds; Which as I said, you don’t get back.
The taxpayer is not paying a penny towards these vehicles besides the fact that Motability don’t currently pay VAT which I believe is up for discussion.

I think a really important point to make here is that PIP is categorically not means tested (even millionaires can claim it, provided their health meets the criteria) and is not paid to replace a disabled person’s income! In other words, people do not live off PIP instead of working, it is paid to cover the added costs associated with being disabled. Costs non-disabled people likely have never even considered, such as cleaners when we can’t do it, basic gardening when we can’t do it, extra electricity for when medical equipment is used at home, ready meals when we’re bed-bound, delivery charges for every single thing we buy because click & collect isn't possible, taxis to work because the bus always already has a wheelchair user on it, along with lots of other small but mounting costs we have zero choice but to pay because the alternative isn’t an option for us. The lowest rate of PIP is just £29.20 per week so we’re not talking big money!

Millions of PIP claimants work full time but crucially, couldn’t do so without PIP and in many cases, without Motability!

As I said above, even wealthy people are eligible to claim PIP to cover the added costs associated with their disability and they can, if they receive the highest rate of the Mobility Component of PIP choose to use Motability. If they want to spend £7,999 plus £77.05 per week to lease an Audi Q4 for 3 years then they can but not many do because it’s a lot of money to have nothing to show for it after 3 years.

So no, nobody is being ‘given free BMWs, Audis or Mercedes’ regardless of what’s being said by anyone!

Well I think they should conduct the experiment to see. I do think you're right with timelines though. Maybe give it a year and then apply.

You don't need suicide attempts to claim PIP for anxiety. You also don't need to be sectioned.

As a former mental health nurse I find it incredibly insulting that you think it's easy to pull the wool over mental health professionals eyes, and you.think they must be thick enough not to know when someone is taking the piss.

Yet there turning people down who have. I would imagine journalists have done this but it didn't turn out well to fit there narrative. There has been uncover recording i think it was panorama inside the dwp and pip assessors talking about bonuses for turning people down for pip laughing at disabled people high fiving each other. It was a few years ago but I bet you could find it online

But we all know that this is very much reliant on how you fill out the form and including what the assessors need to see. I don't doubt that legitimate claimants are rejected but I strongly someone that set out to game the system and with sufficient research and time could definitely do it. I say this as someone that has had a lot of contact with the process.

We also know that most appeals are successful.

I didn't say it was necessarily easy but of course it is possible. Health professionals are often in very difficult positions as it is very hard to accuse someone of outright lying. If I went to you describing all the symptoms of anxiety and reciting examples where I have been unable to leave the house or go to work because of this anxiety then how would you prove I was lying?

The form is only one part of the process. You need medical evidence, you give them full access to your medical records, evidence of treatments. Every one who is part of your care/ medical team and all there details to be contacted. You then will likely be interviewed where they will try and twist everything you have said up to this point. Then if not successful you will go to mandatory reconsideration. Then if thats not successful you go to tribunal this stuff takes months/ years

When i first applied for pip i couldnt leave the house i had a cpn who would do exposure therapy with me. This could then be used as evidence. Saying you can't leave the house isnt evidence. Proof of shopping delivered, medication delivered, medical staff having to do home visits as you can't leave the house these are things that are the responsibility of the claimants to prove to the dwp

You can tell them what you want but it goes off other stuff too eye contact,
How you present and it needs yo be consistent not just a one off .

Yes, but lots of people present atypically. This may be due to Neurodivergent traits. Would you really call someone a liar because they weren't behaving how you expect them to behave? That would be bordering on potential ableism.

And you don't think mh professionals understand this stuff. When you are under secondary care you will have a whole team of mh professionals. Psychiatrists, physcologists, cpn, care co, mental health nurses, therapists etc etc

My husband still gets DLA, he's nearly 80.

You might have had a CPN do exposure therapy with you but you don't need that. You don't need specific evidence for every element of a claim.

I have my shopping and medication delivered and am not disabled. I could provide evidence of these things. It would be possible for someone pretending to have anxiety to insist on home visits or over the phone appointments. This could then be used as proof.

I know you really want the system to be impossible to defraud but it simply isn't. Particularly for some conditions where you can't run medical tests to definitively prove you have it or not. If someone looks the part, acts the part and knows what to say then how can you tell them apart from a genuine applicant without getting into weird subjective prejudices like eye contact and body language that could be influenced in a million and one ways.

Exactly.

Again, coming from a DLA perspective because that is my only experience as of now but they aren't interested in evidence from GP's for a start and they also aren't interested in evidence that is ''Mum says George can't walk due to complications from cancer'' but they would absolutely be interested in evidence from physio and OT explaining that George can't walk and why this is the case and his care needs due to that.

The evidence also needs to be consistent with the forms and if it isn't, the child is unlikely to be awarded DLA, especially high rate awards.

Yes, I think they do understand this stuff. That's why I think they wouldn't call someone a liar due to eye contact or unusual presentation.

I never said that I said if people are going to commit fraud they will do it no matter what is put in place. I said don't make pip even harder to get then it already is as it is the genuine people who will suffer.

You are describing a different type of disability than the ones I am talking about. Obviously something like being unable to walk following cancer would have loads of objective evidence. Someone developing anxiety wouldn't have the same body of evidence. They would have sessions with professionals but it's a completely different beast.

Put it this way. I absolutely couldn't fake your son's condition. I absolutely could fake anxiety and depression. You might think I won't be convincing but I think you underestimate people's ability to dupe the system and over estimate health care professional's willingness to call people liars. I can't believe people that have worked in the health care profession are suggesting that this routinely happens when I know for a fact it simply doesn't.

If you make it harder to claim then you make it harder to defraud. It is also necessary to preserve the benefit and ensure those most in need get help.

🤔 How much harder they could make the process, seeing as it is difficult enough, already.

Have you seen mh services in this country your talking years of suffering before you get the right medication and the right care team to be at the level where you could likely get pip. Most people claiming pip for depression and anxiety likely have physical conditions to like myself. Do you honestly think people are living a normal life in-between. Secondary care is usually triggered when primary care can't handle you any more. People with depression and anxiety will initially visit gp be given medication and then get referred to talking therapy this is classed as primary care still and averages about a 2 year wait time. You will get about 8, 1 hour sessions if this doesn't work you will get to go back on the waiting list after a 6 month break so at this point your probably about 5 years in. What triggers Secondary care is usually serious harm to yourself or others, crisis team involvement. Mh liason involvement which is who you see in a&e and Psychosis. You do not get pip by just nipping to your gp saying your anxious and getting some antidepressants

People honestly have no clue how hard the pip process is unless they have been through it themselves.

So how would you suggest to make it harder?

I think you overestimate your acting power, s and again plenty of people hsve mild anxiety and or depression but most would meet the criteria for PiP
The conditions hsve to impact your life to an extent you are not able to look after yourself or navigate a journey from A to B ,which needs professional evidence, not just someone popping along to their GP.

I wouldn't call anyone a liar ,I would however write down my observations compared to what someone is telling me .

You'd actually have to see the health care professional first because if PIP is anything like DLA, they won't be interested in evidence from a GP. They want evidence from specialists.

I don't think it's impossible but I do think it would be more difficult than some might think such as waiting to see specialists, staying consistent for potentially years, gathering enough evidence etc.

What observations though? If someone said they're anxious, reports expected symptoms and how they impact their life, give detailed examples etc. Then what exactly are you noting down that is incongruent with all of this? Assuming they don't trip themselves up with inconsistences then I don't think eye contact etc that you suggested is compelling evidence that they're lying or incompatible with a claim of anxiety.