I don't want to pay more fucking tax!

[marthainthemarket]

I am the sole earner in a family of four, earning just under 40k a year and getting probably fuck all or below inflation pay increase next year, if I am lucky enough to keep my job ( public sector and employer needing to make massive budget savings). I barely cope now.

I am so fucking angry that Labour fucked up the disability benefit cuts. Other countries don't have run away disability benefits crises because they have a proper assessment process that means they keep a lid on people getting disability benefits who don't really need them. But instead of dealing with that, they came up with a crap proposed cut that wouldn't have dealt with the actual issues and they couldn't defend.

And having fucked that up they are now raising everyone's tax. I hate them!

Given your complete failure to answer the question, I will assume you don't have a good reason why pensions should rise at a quicker rate than other benefits other than self interest. Not sure what you are on about with reference to clothes and coffee!

BS.

1. “Average” UK workers (those earning about £37k) pay less personal income tax and NI than in other major European countries but that is absolutely not true for higher earners, as you claim. Higher earners in the UK pay higher average and marginal tax rates than most of Europe, and our top tax rate kicks in at a lower threshold than many of our competitors. In fact, the UK has one of the more progressive tax systems in Europe in this respect.

You clearly don’t like Conservatives but here’s a good fact for you: since the Conservative-led coalition government took over from Labour in 2010, the contribution of the 1% has risen from about 20% of the total income tax take to almost 30%.

2. You conveniently only focus on taxes on wages in your claim that the UK is not highly taxed. But of course there are lots of other taxes: VAT, capital gains, corporate, inheritance, stamp duty - the list goes on. Taken together the UK tax burden was already forecast to be the highest since the war by 2027, with almost 38% of everything we produce in this country going to the Government. Post 26 November it will be even higher.

3. You don’t say which paragon of a European country you live in but from your description I suspect it is France. France spends a fortune on healthcare and its economy is also on the brink of going bust through utterly unaffordable historic entitlements its citizens will not contemplate altering or paying more for. You also forget to mention that in France over 90% of people pay for private health insurance while in the UK it’s about 10%.

Tory borrowed and borrowed unbelievable amounts of £ to run the country thsts what we’re paying for now, Labour are trying to not borrow

Just proves you have not read my posts! I get my ‘facts’ from myself

Exactly this.

We have a big tasty debt we have to service and we spend huge amounts on individuals being supported individually. Nobody is willing to take a single penny less, right up to questions about what we can and cannot afford on the NHS, so there isn’t any spare money for pooled services.

No government is willing to put the hard line down on improving efficiency and decentralising power/budgets and the number of people from peers like Michelle Mone through DEI staff who don’t know the law to every politician ever with their little bowls out for a splash of gravy would appear to be phenomenal.

You pays your money, they takes your choice.

I don’t think they do.

They just don’t want worse services for more tax.

The main problem in this country is the level of public service we receive is crap. Regardless of how much tax we pay. This is due to endemic failures within the public sector which need to be addressed. Why are people allowed to off sick so often when in the public sector they would simply be fired?

A tax spiral will just keep hitting people harder. There might be some support for Labour left on here but yearly rises will reduce it even further.

Tax basically goes two places:

1. shared services for the common good (defence, roads, rubbish collection, public parks, police, etc.)
2. redistribution to those with less (UC, JSA, PIP, etc.)

There are three ways to lower the taxes required:

1. become more efficient at administration (perhaps AI can help)
2. decide certain services are outside the scope of the state (what things are not really a priority, what things really only cater to niche groups?)
3. take less from taxpayers to give to tax takers (are their people unfairly receiving money others have worked for?)

I think these are the sum total of choices. Becoming more efficient is hard, it takes time for efficiency savings to come through and the overall impact is limited. Labour are ideologically against limiting the size of the state and are very much for redistribution. So taxes will rise.

Heck, nobody wants to pay more tax, but everyone wants the benefits. And for all the faults of the NHS or state education or social services, they keep on delivering. My friends son broke his arm last week. He was in, treated and out of A& E in less than 3 hours. Another friend has just had a triple bypass. God knows what that would have cost in the US. And the people I most often hear complaining are the people I know voted for Brexit…Cause and effect…I get my state pension next year, but I’ll carry on working (and paying tax) for as long as I’m physically able, because otherwise I won’t be able to pay the bills.

I didn’t say it wasn’t - but these careers are often contributing significantly to the public sector for example teaching, heath, social care which in turn reduces the public purse.

Some companies are ethical and give back - they are not all about exploiting the law and doing whatever they can get away with to hold on to their wealth.

On the contrary. Things will only get fixed if we spend money. And so much needs to be fixed after years of cuts and ignoring problems in the country's infrastructure.

We also have to service a massive, expensive debt. And find money to invest in growth. And increase our Defence spending. And work out how to cope in a coutry with lots of old people drawing pensions and many fewer young people paying taxes.

We can't borrow the money so it has to come from taxation.

On the contrary. Things will only get fixed if we spend money. And so much needs to be fixed after years of cuts and ignoring problems in the country's infrastructure

Throwing even more money at these problems will not solve them. There needs to be a deep look at where the money goes, how much is spent where it should be spent, eg patient care in the NHS, and how much is spent on vanity projects and creating jobs that look good on paper but do little for patients.

You are spot on regarding debt.

But if you raise the money from taxation then the economy further slows and more taxation is required and a further slowdown and so on.

In the words of Keir Starmer himself "you can't grow the economy by increasing taxes ". Yet his Government is still increasing taxes.

Probably not. But short term polices have not helped this country at all.

I think most people are prepared to pay more they resent that it is being wasted.

I do not forgive Cameron for the referendum. I mean really, how can the vast majority of us understand the web of being in the EU and what it would mean to leave? Isn't that what politicians are paid for? To make decisions in the best interest of the country? Then when it didn't go his way , Cameron wasn't to be seen for dust. Disgraceful.

Actually it's not necessarily about tax levels compared to other countries which matters but International Tax Competitiveness Index (ITCI) which compares how different countries design their tax systems, and the two main factors it looks at are competitiveness and neutrality.

A competitive tax system keeps marginal tax rates low to encourage investment and economic growth, while a neutral system aims to raise the most revenue with the fewest economic distortions.

On this measure the UK is languishing near the bottom:

All of this, from the first page.

Of course no-one wants to have their tax increased, but quite frankly I understand it is necessary.
What I want is

• for paramedics to be able to do their job rather than be sat in a queue outside hospitals for half their shift
• for people not to have to wait in corridors to be seen
• For people who need an ambulance not to have to wait for literally hours even for Cat 1 and 2 calls
• for schools to be properly funded
• for there to be enough police officers to respond to calls
• for mental health services to be properly funded
• for social care to be properly funded
• for Councils to be properly funded for all the services they provide
• For there to be Youth services as standard rather than crisis only
• For there to be preventative services such as Sure Start Children's Centres
• For there to be proper maternity care
• For there to be enough HVs so they can do more than just attending Child Protection Conferences then try to spend their spare hour a week spread between 500 families on caseload
• For there to be no need for food banks
• For there to be proper support for people given accommodation after being homeless
• For there to be proper support for people who come out of prison
• For there to be enough prison officers for prisons to be safe, and for prisoners to get the support, educations and skills that might mean they are less likely to reoffend
• For Doctors not to be working such ridiculously long shifts they are exhausted when making crucial decisions, whilst 1/2 of newly qualified Drs can't get training places
• For TAs and LSAs in schools, and EYPs in Nurseries to be paid a wage that reflects their skill levels and responsibilities
• For there to be enough special schools for all the children that need them
• For there to be enough therapists for all the children that need them (OTs, physios, SaLTs, Play therapists, Music Therapists)

and so much more, but hopefully you are getting the idea.

This needs to be paid for by all of us. 'Society' if you like, and then 'society' (or all of us) will benefit from the services being improved. Even back to the levels we had 15 years ago, would be a start (though mental health services have always been underfunded).

OP, I know this is 'chat', but it is a really unreasonable statement.
There are lots of people in the country who want to see services improve.

So why don't you hate the people who fucked up our economy so spectacularly? You know the reasons for this go far, far beyond disability benefits, and that the savings you think Labour could have made from that source wouldn't have gone more than a fraction of the way towards remedying the problems they inherited?

There is trash talk on both sides.

It's not unreasonable to want a review of the benefits system.

What would be a "fair" way to cut disability benefits? Since you are so invested in this, presumably you saw the distress it caused. Isn't this just a case of you don't want to be worse off but you don't mind if someone else suffers? YANBU to dislike tax rises - most people do, but YABVVVU to want the most vulnerable in society to shoulder the burden so you don't have to. FWIW, welfare benefits as a percentage of GDP haven't really increased since the late 90s. Pensions have. The "runaway benefits bill" thing is a massive con.

Austerity was a series of swingeing cuts to public services across the board. So things started to decline.

Then the global economy stabilised and Britain voted for Brexit, so a lot of money and resources were shifted from services and infrastructure to Brexit. We lost a lot of tax paying, desirable, essential workers that had to be replaced. EU money that paid for services in poorer and remote areas disappeared. The Tory party lost its mind, blah blah blah, and neglected to maintain the day to day running of the country. Services declined further.

Then came Covid, War in Ukraine, Liz Truss and about 1million refugees.

We have loads more people living in a system suffering from long term neglect and lack of funds and that's why our services are so shit.

Sadly, another predictable thread.

The snake is eating itself and has now chomped up nearly as far as its own neck.

Increasing taxes will make some people reconsider their need to work.
More and more people in their 50’s will reduce their working hours / retire and subsequently pay less tax to HMRC because they can afford to and are not all saddled with large housing costs.
This will put more financial taxation burden on the under 50’s.
It will not lead to more jobs - companies will just not replace them, especially if people are still working part time.

There will be significant unintended consequences of decisions to keep taxing working people with no attempt to reduce the welfare state costs.