Is this normal pre teen behaviour?

[Momofteengirl]

Name changed but long time member. Struggling majorly with my 12 year old dd. I need advice.
Backstory, she was bullied in her previous school. It was dealt with by the school but dd was traumatised seeing those girls in her class every day so I moved her last year.
She's in a new school now and is just not making friends. We are still in primary here, we are not in the UK. Secondary next year when she's 13. She says she doesn't like anyone. There is an issue with every child she encounters. There are a big group of popular/ mean girls in her class, who all get into trouble a lot. Then what is left all have their own friends. She has made friends but then they say a mean thing and dd decides she no longer likes them. Most of the girls in her school just generally seem to be mean spirited, comments are always nasty or put-downs.
She has friends at home from when she was younger that she, for various different reasons, doesn't get to see very often. But when she is with these friends, or with close family, she is loud outgoing and very very funny and kind. But in general she is very shy quiet and reserved until she feels very secure. So people don't get to see the real her.
I have her enrolled in lots of activities and she has tentative friendships, but again there will be some issue why she can't be proper friends with them. She in general just finds people annoying!
Also, is it normal as a mum to be living this with her? I'm losing sleep for worrying about her and I feel every sadness she feels. I'm literally going crazy with worry.
Any advice at all I would be so grateful. I have a 20 year old ds who sailed through his teens so I feel completely new to all this.

OP without knowing your DD it can be difficult to say what the issue is. She could have been very very unlucky and have just encountered unpleasant classmates or she would be the problem. I have a friend who’s DC is at the same school as my own DD and her DC is in a class where she has never really found her tribe, no actual bullying but she has never felt like she actually fits in. I know the child and I know the mum and they are genuinely lovely people and not drama lamas or anything like that. Equally I’ve come across other people where there always seems to be an issue and it’s everyone else who is the problem and never their DC who is always very “sensitive”. Does she have interests that are a bit more alternative ? Is she otherwise very mature for her age. If she is in a class of sporty girls and she is into drama or certain types of music then that can be an issue. Next year when she is in secondary she will find a much more diverse group and that definitely helps. My own DD is in first year (am I right in thinking you might be in Ireland) and she is thriving and loving school but she went to a different school to all of her classmates as even though she had great friends I just knew that this other school would suit her better. Have you looked at secondaries for her? If she isn’t actually being bullied and just refuses to join in or engage with the other girls the I think I’d just roll my eyes and let her off and try to make more effort with the friends she does have outside of school

im autistic and was quite like this as a child as i struggled with black and white thinking, i.e if someone said or did one thing i disagreed with, even if relatively minor, i would go straight to disliking them or thinking poorly of them and not take into account all of their positive traits. sounds perhaps similar to your DD - i have learned to work on this over time though so it can be helped :)

@SparkyBlue yes you are correct. She is similar to your friend in that she doesn't cause drama and is genuinely lovely. I tell her all the time she just hasn't found her tribe yet, but honestly I really think there's more to it than that. In saying all that we have chosen a secondary with quite a diverse population in the hopes she will find her tribe there. But we moved primary hoping the same and it didnt work so I'm scared to put all my hopes on that. I suppose I'm trying to find the issue and fix it so when she does go she finds it easier.

Thanks. I am actually mid assessment with her but preliminary findings are that she probably is not autistic so that's why I didn't mention it.

I’m not sure why you’re getting a bit of a hard time here!

I think it sounds quite likely that she could be extra sensitive having been previously bullied. In my experience around this age friendship dynamics can be difficult and complicated and there can be competition/ pecking order stuff even amongst girls who consider themselves friends which results in low-level “mean” behaviour.

How much is she herself feeling lonely / in need of friends? Some people are just more introverted/ insular and don’t feel the need to be part of a big social circle or are happy to to have arms-length friends rather than close “besties”.

OP, I think your worry is understandable but you need to do your best to dial it back a bit as she is probably picking it up.

She sounds like she's not very resilient. which, if she was previously bullied, is easy to understand. Also, remember that a lot of children who were starting school at the time of Covid are widely acknowledged to have missed out on some really important social skills and social development.

DD is also not as resilient as I would like and we've had to work quite hard to get her to be able to understand and be less black and white in her thinking. eg, if she says that person X said YY and that means she thinks that's it for their friendship, we'll talk about why that person may have saidi that, what might be going on in their lives, and whether this one thing makess all the other good things about them less important.

DD loves dance so she attends a lovely dance school. She hasn't made very close friends as, by pure bad luck, she's pretty much the only child in her year group in the school! But she has made friends and being there makes her feel good, gives her a sense of purpose and community, and that helps her with her confidence elsewhere. If you can find something similar, that is helpful. Also things she can be passionate about will help her make friends, especially as she goes into high school, as she meets other people with similar passions.

If she won't see a counsellor, can you discuss it with the school - many schools have informal counselling or guidance programs or can even do things like encourage certain friendships etc. Does she have a teacher she particularly connects to? That can be very powerful too if you have a word with that teacher.

Finally, it is interesting thatyou sensed smoething and went with an ASD assessment. is she also being assessed for other ND such as ADHD, SPD etc? Any and all of these can impact how a child interacts with the world.

She is desperately lonely. That's the problem, she's not happy and I don't know how to help her.

@JadziaD I have thought that my worry may be making her feel worse but I just don't know how not to worry when she is so unhappy. She has a particular hobby she loves and really likes everyone at the group but hasn't made friends of her own. Another activity she absolutely hates because a 'friend' she doesn't like goes there, she says if she only had a friend there she would be happy.
Your dd sounds similar with the lack of resilience etc, and I admire the work you've put into helping her. I don't think I'm helping my dd in the slightest. I just can't seem to reach her or get her to listen to me.
We are mid assessment, she has a lot of sensory issues too. I think they are going to blame her issues on the bullying though.

There are ways you can intervene - if she likes the children at the group, can you try to suggest a meet up? If the group is an art group for example, perhaps sorganise a trip to a local art gallery and invite some of the other children/families?

If there's an activity she likes but oesn't have a friend, what about one of the friends you said she does have but doesn't see often - could you arrange for one of them to start joining your DD at this activity?

If she's ND, talking at her won't help unfortunately. So you're going to have to be patient yourself. Start my looking out actively for things to highlight as positive/ be positive about/ start opening the door?

"That was a great class today wasn't it? I saw you and Helen having a laugh as you came out?"

"Well done for going to that after school club, I know it can be difficult when you don't know anyone, I'm really proud of you for givng it a go."

"Do you want to come with me to watch this movie next week? I think it will be really fun - perhaps you have a friend who wants to come too or shall we just do it as a mum and daughter activity?"

Sensory processing issues can be really problematic and can make children react and act in ways that are outside of "normal". A diagnosis doesn't help necessarily except in helping you, and her, tounderstand and to find ways to work around those. I would continue to explore that - Occupational Therapists are great for this.

I am trying a lot of these things already but I'm meeting resistance from her. The activity suggestions you made are great but wouldn't work in these scenarios unfortunately, but you have me thinking about things I could do with these activities.
Would an occupational therapist help with friendship issues?

When I was 10 or 11, I told my mum I hated everyone in my class, and gave explicit reasons! In hindsight, I was socially awkward - possible autistic traits (my brother is diagnosed), had cone from a tiny primary, and didn't know how to fit in. My social skills were totally out of step. I was also academically bright, and had 2 younger siblings, so may have also been used to "younger" activities. Does any of that resonate at all?

OP I have a much younger child but there is a girl in my dd's class who seems to be very much heading in a similar direction to your dd. The problem is that her mother has a seriously bizarre attitude towards the girls in our class. I'm not saying any of them are perfect but this mum encourages her kid to form overly intense friendships then massively blows any argument out of proportion and then labels pretty much every child a bully and slags them off to anyone who'll listen. It's got to the point already (they've just started Y3) where she's pretty much burned her bridge with every girl in the class. This is because the mum is bloody awful and tbh most grown ups don't have time for such bs but also the child now seems like a rabbit in headlights when it comes to interacting with the kids. She completely frosts kids out and tries to slyly get her current favourites (changes every 5 seconds) to play only with her and seems completely confused about how to just play and enjoy other kids. I strongly believe that if mum didn't hold such bizarrely personal vendetas against 6/7 year olds and blow every minor infringement out of proportion her dd would be much happier.

I'm not saying you're doing this but I think you maybe need to explain to your daughter that nobody is perfect and part of being friends with anyone is being somewhat tolerant of their imperfections. She can nitpick and get upset about every little argument but chances are that will leave her with no friends. If she's happy with this then leave her to it. Otherwise she needs to learn to stick up for herself and keep clear of the drama but remain friendly and hopefully she'll find her tribe. You can't force friendships though at half your dd's age never mind 13. She's going to have to make some effort to figure it out for herself or accept being alone.

@Tanaqui yes the lack of social skills and not knowing how to fit in for sure. I wouldn't say she's academically bright particularly, and probably has slightly older tastes than some of her peers.

To give a perspective to this, my 11 yr old is very kind, well behaved and quite sensitive. To them a lot of children seem unkind at times. I explain it to her that for her age she had a remarkable level of empathy that others haven’t developed yet and that’s no criticism of them, they just haven’t. But I then point out, she needs to develop her understanding of how other people operate and being aware that people make mistakes.
I try and encourage resilience and giving people a chance (within reason).

An occupational therpist would help with processing issues, which, in turn, might help with the friendship issues.

Re trying and it not landing - just keep at it. DD is the non resilient one but she's NT (or I assume so) but DS is ND and we've had similar issues. But it's repetition. Remember, ND children hear No more than others, they get negative feedback more than others etc. So just keep on doing it - consistently, lightly, in small bursts (no long deep meaningful chats unless she drives it). I would suggest inviting "Dave" round or taking "Pete" swimming with us or whatever and mostly he'd say no, but then sometimes he'd say yes and it would work. If he expressed an interest in something, I leapt on it with enthusiasm as his OWN enthusiasm, if harnessed, can be so powerful. with DD and her friendship issues, I downplay the negative and highlight the positive.

It's just consistency and long term thinking.

Oh bless her, it's so hard to see them struggling.

It sounds stupid, but in what "way" is she lonely? How does it manifest?

e.g. feeling lost and alone at school breaktimes can feel very challenging, it feels like everyone is watching you. So just having a plan for breaks can help. I know our primary school orchestrated some lunchtime activities for children who needed it etc - the school art teacher used to have a little group of kids who were allowed to drop into the art room at lunch) - over time that might help with friendships but in the short term it gets you out of that "I don't know what to do with myself" awkwardness. It'd be worth speaking to the school to see what they can do if you haven't already. Some children I know would take books or sketchbooks so they knew they had a back-up plan for days they felt alone.

If it's about wanting the actual social contacts (chatting, gossiping, goofing about) then making sure she's maximising her connections with pre-existing friends

'Family time' (whatever you like to do together - games, cooking, shopping etc) can help make sure she's getting opportunities to just relax and have fun.

Other people have made some good suggestions for how to try to engineer some friendships but I know from my own experience it's hard not to feel like you're not constantly harassing them for information and jumping on any mention of someone new with "ooh do you want to invite them round", to a certain extent they need to find their own way at this age.

I think maybe it’s a reaction to the bullying but to be honest, she needs a talking to, there is one common denominator here…her. She will continue this into her adult life if she carries on. It’s her MO now and she probably can’t change until she works on herself. She can’t change other people but she certainly can change her reactions to them.

Thank you both, yes I suppose I'll keep at it. I think I have myself tied up in knots trying to figure it out. But she's sad all the time. She tells me these stories and I can see her flawed thinking but I cant advise her without coming across as critical, not on her side, and preachy.

Yes, I tend to agree. But how to give that talk with kindness and without knocking her already fragile confidence? She is so hyper sensitive and hyper aware of criticism that I'm afraid I'll make her worse.

There’s definitely ways to say these things in a nice tone, you can say they with love, although the message is what it is there’s no denying it. But you are her mother, she knows you are on her side and you ca reiterate that throughout the conversations. But the truth is hard to hear, and that’s life, it won’t be the last time she has to hear home truths. I think as long as it can be a reflective and productive conversation then she will be ok.

I suppose i had been holding off on that talk in case there was a neurodiversity there, but as someone upthread said, that doesn't change anything.

Lonely as in wanting a big group of friends, feeling left out and not enjoying the friendships she does have. I have spoken to school, they place her with other special needs kids, which she hates. I know that sounds harsh and unfeeling but I don't mean it that way at all. Then they don't allow anything to be taken outside so she cant take her kindle etc. So she just wanders around alone, which in turn makes her look like she has no friends, which really makes the others not want to hang out with her.

Mmmn, the more you write, the more I think that you should be exploring a different diagnosis to ASD. ADHD and/or SPD.

A lot of people with AHD in particlar struggle with self esteem and self worth. They are highly sensitive to rejection. They can go roudn and round in negative spirals.

with DS, I realised I had to stop trying to "convince" him of whatever negative he was in. All that did ws reinforce his focus on it. So I stopped. He'd be having a meltdown about something and I woudl talk to him and argue against it for a few minutes, then once I realised I was just repeating myself I'd stop. "No DS, I've already told you, I do not think you're stupid and I'm not discussing this anymore" etc.

Their brains iterally can't absorb info when they get like this. They might not LOOK like a 2 year old having a tantrum, but that really is what they are doing and they need to be calmly and lovingly left. Then you move on. And say the positive thing later.

DS' school do a few things that are really powerful. Teachers send post cards home at the end of term for chidlren who have done well (and again, this is where a particlar teacher they connect to is very powerful). They get awarded for effort under certain conditions or, more importantly, for improvement. It's really helpful and gives us tools to point to when DS is spiralling.

So, for example, "no one likes me" becomes "don't be silly - you had a great time with Jane just last week." followed by a small, subtle campaign by me to make small comments highlighting this repeatedly : "haha - I think you charmed that lady in the shop - I can't believe she gave you a free muffin" "I'm glad that you and Jack had a good time at football this week" etc etc etc

@JadziaD she has a LOT of sensory issues, food fussiness, feels overwhelmed by noise, can't bear to hear or see people eat, hates people yawning, gets upset by shouting. But the questionnaires all asked about tantrums around this type of behaviour which she doesn't have, its all internal. Plus no real issues with clothing. Its like the assessment didn't ask the right questions, or they didn't give opportunities to explain the nuances of their questions iyswim? So I think the report will come back 'clear' for want of a better word.

I'm just feeling so lost and helpless, where can I go for help?