Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

1000 replies

MagicFox · 17/10/2025 22:11

Well, it’s thread 59.

Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

D. Please keep on topic

OP posts:
Thread gallery
441
Natsku · 10/12/2025 06:25

1dayatatime · 09/12/2025 19:34

In the case of Finland, pre 2021 their defence spending was consistently historically below 1.3%. It's only now that they have increased this to 2.4% and that's because despite their history they are only now recognising how big and how real a threat Russia is.

Finns have always viewed Russia as dangerous, every military exercise the enemy comes from the east.
Defence spending mainly increased because they ordered the F35s, which was a massive investment. Conscription means our normal defence costs aren't so high as much less salary needs to be paid (conscripts just get a few euros a day, plus rent paid) even with 1.2% spending we had the largest artillery force in Europe. The invasion has obviously influenced spending too but its not a case of Finns only just realising now how dangerous Russia is, Russia is the reason conscription was never stopped, even after the fall of the soviet union, and why bomb shelters have always been maintained, why we've always regularly tested the air raid sirens, maintain a massive emergency stockpile, have regular multisector preparation training, and why training in various aspects of defence and preparedness has always been popular for civilians with many courses run around the country every year.

DdraigGoch · 10/12/2025 09:27

@1dayatatime Quite simply Europeans need to recognise that they can no longer expect a free ride on US defence spending.

Yet the Trump administration appears to be refusing to allow the use of US-made weapons even if they're funded by European nations. This is clearly about something more than funding.

DdraigGoch · 10/12/2025 09:34

@1dayatatime Instead European taxpayers used the money instead for things like Universal healthcare, welfare programs and generous state pensions- things that were not available to US taxpayers.

That the US lacks a functioning healthcare system has nothing to do with defence budgets. The US spends far more on healthcare per capita than any European country. It all gets eaten up in corporate profits.

blueshoes · 10/12/2025 09:56

https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-9-2025/

Key Takeaways

  1. The Kremlin is significantly intensifying its cognitive warfare effort to present the Russian military and economy as able to inevitably win a war of attrition against Ukraine.
  2. The Kremlin’s cognitive warfare effort aims to achieve several of Putin’s original war aims through a negotiated settlement, as Russian forces are currently unable to achieve them on the battlefield.
  3. Russian forces have gained 0.77 percent of Ukrainian territory since the start of 2025 while suffering disproportionately high personnel costs.
  4. Russia’s resources are not endless as Putin is trying to assert, and Putin currently appears to be facing difficult decision points regarding the strategic sustainment of Russian force generation.
  5. Putin is very likely preparing to attempt to offset Russia’s near-exhaustion of voluntary recruitment in 2026 by mobilizing elements of Russia’s strategic reserve to sustain combat operations in Ukraine. The Kremlin remains unlikely to undertake a single large-scale mobilization at this time, however, and is most likely to persistently recruit reservists on a rolling basis.
  6. A Kremlin official suggested that Russia may try to renege on any future peace agreement it signs with Ukraine due to the Ukrainian government’s alleged “illegitimacy” – as ISW has long warned.
  7. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky commented on the latest 20-point US-proposed peace plan.
  8. Ukraine continued discussions with its European allies on December 8 about the ongoing peace negotiations.
  9. Russian forces recently advanced near Lyman and Pokrovsk and in western Zaporizhia Oblast. Ukrainian forces recently advanced near Oleksandrivka.
1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 11:01

DdraigGoch · 10/12/2025 09:27

@1dayatatime Quite simply Europeans need to recognise that they can no longer expect a free ride on US defence spending.

Yet the Trump administration appears to be refusing to allow the use of US-made weapons even if they're funded by European nations. This is clearly about something more than funding.

Except that's not true - presumably why you used the word "apparently ".

European nations can still continue to buy US made weapons to supply to Ukraine under the deal agreed in July this year. Of course there will be restrictions on what is sold (eg no F35s etc so they don't fall into Russian hands) but seeing as what needed most is air defence and 155mm ammunition then that shouldn't be a problem.

Which then poses the question of what is your motivation for posting factually incorrect information?

Trump weapons pledge marks major step forward for Ukraine https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy4y2rv41pyo

https://thecradle.co/articles/us-arms-paid-for-by-eu-begin-flowing-to-ukraine

US arms paid for by EU begin flowing to Ukraine

US weapons continue to flow to Ukraine as Trump's diplomacy with Putin to end the war stalls

https://thecradle.co/articles/us-arms-paid-for-by-eu-begin-flowing-to-ukraine

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:28

dear me, @1dayatatime , at this point I have to say if someone is posting factually incorrect information you really need to look at yourself.

You had absolutely no idea about Finland, you're pushing the line that the US would have invested the money it spent on NATO into healthcare and welfare when all the evidence is that the US has long chosen to focus on other priorities, and you seem to have completely missed that at some points that the US halted arms deliveries without explanation.

It has ~now~ been said in the last few days that the EU will be able to buy US arms to deliver them to Ukraine. But this was not the case before. Trump used halts in aid to pressure Ukraine.

Please get your facts right.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:38

Kyiv Independent Telegram Highlights

⚡️ Update: Zelensky says revised peace framework (kyivindependent.com/zelensky-unveils-3-track-plan-as-talks-intensify/) now has 20 points.
President Volodymyr Zelensky described the revised version as "a framework that keeps evolving" and must reflect "the interests of Ukraine, Europe, and the world."

⚡️ Update: Zelensky says US pledges 'realistic security guarantees (kyivindependent.com/zelensky-unveils-3-track-plan-as-talks-intensify/)' for Ukraine.
"If needed, sanctions would be applied, so that we have air defense, and it should be Article 5-like," President Volodymyr Zelensky said.

⚡️Ukraine regains part of Pokrovsk as 'defense continues,' (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-regains-part-of-pokrovsk-syrskyi-says/) Syrskyi says.

Ukraine has recaptured 13 square kilometers (5 square miles) of territory in Pokrovsk after previously having no troops left in the city, Commander-in-Chief Oleksandr Syrskyi said during a Dec. 9 press briefing.

⚡️ Ukraine war latest live (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-12-9/): Russia's Chuvashia Republic declares state of emergency after reported drone attack, media reports.

⚡️Zelensky 'ready' to hold elections (kyivindependent.com/zelensky-ready-to-hold-elections-during-war-if-partners-ensure-security/) during war, if partners ensure security.
"I'm asking now, and stating this openly, for the U.S. to help me. Together with our European partners, we can ensure the security needed to hold elections. If that happens, Ukraine will be ready to conduct elections in the next 60 to 90 days," President Volodymyr Zelensky said.

⚡️Around 20% of Ukrainians would vote (kyivindependent.com/zelenskys-presidential-rating-drops-to-20-poll-shows/) for Zelensky in first round of future elections, poll shows.
Former Commander-in-Chief Valerii Zaluzhnyi, now Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.K., ranks second with 19.1%, a 3% increase from the previous poll.

⚡️ Ukraine war: (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-12-9/) Special Forces destroy Russian drone depot in occupied Donetsk Oblast.

⚡️ Ukraine war latest live (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-12-9/): Russian An-22 military cargo plane crashes, everyone on board reportedly killed.

⚡️ Ukraine war latest live (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-12-9/): UK Armed Forces member dies during weapons test in Ukraine.

Ukraine wants whistleblowers. How is it strengthening their protection? (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-wants-whistleblowers-how-is-it-strengthening-their-protection/)
"Experience from other countries shows that whistleblowing only works when three things are in place: strong protection, real financial incentives, and easy-to-use reporting tools," writes Hanna Novosolova, a corruption prevention specialist, in this op-ed.

⚡️ 'We will become homeless (kyivindependent.com/russians-protest-loss-of-compensation-payments-to-residents-who-lost-property-during-ukraines-incursion-in-kursk-meduza-reports/)' — Russians protest in Kursk Oblast over loss of compensation payments for property lost during Ukraine's incursion.
Protesters recorded a video appeal to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦
‪@ragnarbjartur.bsky.social‬
⚡️ WAR IN UKRAINE & RUSSIA — DEC 10, 2025
■ While both engagements and casualties are up from the previous day, casualties remain below the 7-day average
Snow affects drone usage; losses of unarmored vehicles are above average
■ Overnight attacks: double-digit, all drones; interception rate could be better, 7 locations hit
■ Fewer air and artillery strikes on both sides; the 30-day 🇷🇺/🇺🇦 strike ratio remains unchanged

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:50

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

Food production in Russia has begun to decline for the first time in 15 years, — Forbes
Investments in new food industry projects have dropped by almost 45%, returning to 2013 levels.
Among the reasons cited are the Central Bank’s high interest rate, a severe labor shortage, accelerating inflation, and unstable exchange rates. At the same time, the domestic market is oversaturated: Russians have begun to economize, buying less and switching to cheaper products, which reduces demand for existing supplies.

EU member states are prepared to approve a decision on the indefinite freezing of Russian assets at an accelerated pace to prevent a potential Hungarian veto, FT reports.
The European Commission has proposed using these €210 billion to support Ukraine.
For this mechanism to function, the assets must be frozen indefinitely rather than in six-month intervals, which currently require unanimous approval from all 27 EU members.

POLITICO: Orban recently said that you promised him access to a U.S.-backed financial shield worth up to $20 billion. Is that right?
Trump: No, I didn’t promise him, but he certainly asked for it.
https://t.me/United24media/38030

A tanker carrying oil from sanctioned Rosneft reached China via a record-breaking route, Bloomberg reports.
The tanker Fortis, carrying around 700,000 barrels of crude, anchored near the port of Rizhao, most of whose terminals are also blacklisted by the US for trading Iranian oil.
The 11-week journey began in Ust-Luga (Baltic Sea) on another vessel. The cargo passed through the Mediterranean Sea and the Suez Canal before being transferred offshore to the Fortis near India. The Fortis changed course several times, and part of the cargo was transshipped near South Korea. Normally, transporting oil from western Russian ports to China takes about two months, but this shipment took nearly a month longer.
Bloomberg notes that the case highlights the uncertainty created by US sanctions on Russian oil exports, as buyers seek to minimize risks associated with Washington’s oversight.
Russian sabotage in Europe may be preparation for a full-scale war by 2029, FT reports.
European intelligence officials told the publication that recent sabotage incidents represent not just Moscow’s tactical response to the war in Ukraine, but a strategic escalation. The targets and the level of risk Russia is taking indicate a more serious threat than previously assumed.
These assessments are now being reviewed alongside NATO’s 2023 report, which states that Russia is preparing its military and economy for a possible conflict with Europe by 2029.
Over the past year, intelligence agencies have prevented attempts to bomb trains, set fire to shopping malls, and poison water supplies. Particularly alarming were explosive devices sent via DHL to the UK, Poland, and Germany — powerful enough to bring down a cargo plane.
According to the FT, citing intelligence data, this was part of a broader plan to disrupt air operations.
The publication also reports that Russian agents are scouting road bridges and railways across Europe, likely to plant explosives, and that Moscow is trying to infiltrate highly skilled sleeper saboteurs into European countries.
It is noted that Russia’s campaign increasingly relies on a “gig economy” of espionage — operators recruited through Telegram, working for money and not formally tied to Russian intelligence services.
In response, NATO is considering more decisive measures, including potential preemptive actions such as retaliatory cyberattacks aimed at deterring covert aggression. Experts believe Europe is currently facing a key test of its ability to counter such threats.

Germany plans to begin production of an upgraded version of the TAURUS cruise missile in 2029 — Reuters.
The missile, developed by the European defense company MBDA, is designed to destroy targets behind enemy lines — command bunkers, ammunition and fuel depots, airfields, and bridges.
The upgraded TAURUS NEO missile, worth €415 million, will have an increased range, enhanced obstacle penetration, improved navigation systems, and a modernized seeker. Swedish company Saab and U.S.-based Williams International are listed as key subcontractors.
Germany intends to purchase around 600 TAURUS NEO missiles for a total of about €2 billion.
Currently, the German Armed Forces possess roughly 600 TAURUS missiles with a range of more than 500 km.

🇺🇦 The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) detained a foreign cargo ship in the port of Odesa that was part of Russia’s “shadow fleet” and had been illegally transporting Ukrainian agricultural products from temporarily occupied Crimea.
The ship’s owner is under NSDC sanctions and, according to the investigation, repeatedly changed the vessel’s name and listed beneficiaries in third countries to evade restrictions.
The dry cargo vessel arrived in Odesa under the flag of an African state to load a batch of steel pipes.

Ternopil City Council has begun demolishing the high-rise building destroyed by a Russian missile.
Experts previously determined that the building could not be restored due to critical damage to its load-bearing structures, making it completely unusable.

Ukraine is not for sale — Russia will get nothing but the hole of a bagel, said Ukraine’s Ambassador to the UN Andriy Melnyk.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 11:56

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:28

dear me, @1dayatatime , at this point I have to say if someone is posting factually incorrect information you really need to look at yourself.

You had absolutely no idea about Finland, you're pushing the line that the US would have invested the money it spent on NATO into healthcare and welfare when all the evidence is that the US has long chosen to focus on other priorities, and you seem to have completely missed that at some points that the US halted arms deliveries without explanation.

It has ~now~ been said in the last few days that the EU will be able to buy US arms to deliver them to Ukraine. But this was not the case before. Trump used halts in aid to pressure Ukraine.

Please get your facts right.

So exactly what part of the statement is incorrect that prior to the Ukraine war in 2021 and before, Finnish defence spending was around 1.3 % and has now risen to 2.4%.

This increase was indeed in large part due to an expensive purchase of F35s. Will Finland continue to spend 2.4% after the F35s are delivered or will it drop back? Who knows.

Which part of my statement that the US spends more on defence and less on social welfare than the UK and Europe is factually incorrect?

I will concede that the US does spend a higher proportion of GDP on healthcare than say Europe but this is largely due to it being a more expensive country (doctors salaries etc) and an unhealthy population.

You may disagree with my views that "Europe is all about warm words but not much real commitment to Ukraine " - but I never knowingly post incorrect information.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:58

@1dayatatime at this point, pet, you seem to be here to cause trouble so no I'm not engaging in your need to try to distract and waste time.

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 11:59

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:28

dear me, @1dayatatime , at this point I have to say if someone is posting factually incorrect information you really need to look at yourself.

You had absolutely no idea about Finland, you're pushing the line that the US would have invested the money it spent on NATO into healthcare and welfare when all the evidence is that the US has long chosen to focus on other priorities, and you seem to have completely missed that at some points that the US halted arms deliveries without explanation.

It has ~now~ been said in the last few days that the EU will be able to buy US arms to deliver them to Ukraine. But this was not the case before. Trump used halts in aid to pressure Ukraine.

Please get your facts right.

Oh and on the topic of getting your facts right, the announcement that the US would allow European countries to purchase US weapons and provide them to Ukraine was announced in July and the first orders placed in August, so it's definitely not something that has "happened in the past few days".

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 12:00

And the halts to US aid have happened since then, according to reports.

But I am certain now you're not posting in good faith.

Southernecho · 10/12/2025 12:01

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 11:01

Except that's not true - presumably why you used the word "apparently ".

European nations can still continue to buy US made weapons to supply to Ukraine under the deal agreed in July this year. Of course there will be restrictions on what is sold (eg no F35s etc so they don't fall into Russian hands) but seeing as what needed most is air defence and 155mm ammunition then that shouldn't be a problem.

Which then poses the question of what is your motivation for posting factually incorrect information?

Trump weapons pledge marks major step forward for Ukraine https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy4y2rv41pyo

https://thecradle.co/articles/us-arms-paid-for-by-eu-begin-flowing-to-ukraine

Posting articles 5 or 6 months old in the fast moving world of Team Trump, is not supporting your assertions that all is good with Trump/Nato and Europe.

Weapons supplies to Ukraine are falling, Europe simply cannot buy enough from the US & tbh even this policy of selling weapons is despicable in itself.

Trump has chosen sides & it is NOT Europe, let alone Ukraine, it is Putin and Russia.
Anyone cannot see that is fool or worse.

Given where we are on defence spend and preparedness, the US now pulling the rug out, is not what an ally would do, then there are tariffs, thats damaged Europe's economies.

America has fallen a very long way from when Russia was an enemy of the USA and we had a reliable ally.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 12:05

Kyiv Post Telegram Highlights

The United States is moving to leave NATO.
A bill has been introduced that would withdraw the country from the Alliance and redirect billions of dollars toward domestic defense, Republican congressman Thomas Massie announced

Ukraine secured investor backing for the final terms of a $3.2B swap (www.kyivpost.com/post/65917) of GDP-linked warrants, clearing the way to convert them into new C-series bonds. The deal ends months of tense talks and marks the last major step in Ukraine’s sovereign debt restructuring.

Volodymyr Zelensky met with Italy’s Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni in Rome, saying the two held “a very substantive discussion” on the diplomatic situation and efforts to advance peace.

After 16 months of holding the line, Ukrainian forces have pulled back from positions just 5–7 kilometers outside Pokrovsk (www.kyivpost.com/post/65929) — an area where roughly 156,000 Russian troops are now massed.

The Kremlin said Trump’s latest statements on Ukraine in which he said Moscow will win the war and that Kyiv will have to cede land align with Russia’s view. (www.kyivpost.com/post/65967)

Zelensky still hasn’t read the proposal, Trump says, adding he hopes the president “finds time to read it.”
He claims Zelensky’s people “loved the proposal” and “really liked it,” but told him the president hasn’t reviewed it.

Ukraine and Poland are holding negotiations on the transfer of Polish MiG-29 fighter (www.kyivpost.com/post/65928) jets to Ukraine’s Defense Forces. In return, Poland is requesting certain Ukrainian drone and missile technologies.

Mixed Signals in Washington: a high-level US-Ukraine check-in lands (www.kyivpost.com/post/65919) the same day that Washington cracks down on oligarch gatekeepers. Meanwhile Congress grows restless on sanctions.

⚡️ Vladimir Putin has been ranked above Volodymyr Zelensky in Politico’s annual list of Europe’s most influential figures.
Putin appears in 5th place in the “Disruptors” category, while Zelensky is listed 14th as the “Wildcard.”
At the top of the rankings is U.S. President Donald Trump, described as the “Transatlantic Shockwave.”
Other leading positions include:
• Denmark’s PM Mette Frederiksen (2nd — “The North Star”)
• Germany’s Chancellor Friedrich Merz (3rd — “The Reluctant Cardinal”)
• France’s Marine Le Pen (4th — “The Warhorse”)
• Putin closes the top five.
Politico says the list highlights figures shaping Europe’s political landscape — for better or worse.

Finland’s president has said his country joined NATO “at (www.kyivpost.com/post/65944) the last moment” and that staying out of the alliance for so long had been a “strategic mistake.”

⚡️Kyiv plunged into a massive blackout — over 70% of the capital now without power. [last night]

Caught in the act: Ukrainian intelligence says two foreign operatives were recruited by the Kremlin (www.kyivpost.com/post/65888) to commit arson in Ukraine

Returned Russian soldiers linked to over 1,000 killings and violent attacks across Russia (www.kyivpost.com/post/65891)— many involving drunk, drug-fueled fights inside their own homes.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 12:10

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

The American side has given Ukraine a matter of days to respond to the latest version of the "peace deal" that it is discussing with Kyiv and Russia, according to the FT.
According to the publication, Trump hopes to conclude the agreement by Christmas.
One Western official interviewed by the publication described the Ukrainian side as being "stuck between territorial demands it cannot accept and a US side it cannot reject."

❗️More statements from Zelenskyy's press conference:
🔴The US did not threaten to close PURL — on the contrary, they said it would continue to operate. An additional €800 million is needed for this year, and Ukraine knows where to get it. If the war continues, another €15 billion will be needed for next year.
🔴The Americans stated that "this time they want Ukraine to have realistic security guarantees, voted on by Congress," similar to Article 5 of the NATO charter. And also that Ukraine should have weapons, air defense, and that sanctions [against the Russian Federation] should be applied if necessary.
🔴Ukraine wants to join NATO, but neither the US nor several other countries see Ukraine in NATO. And Russia will never see Ukraine there.
🔴Ukraine wants to reclaim the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea, but there are not enough forces and sufficient support for this.
🔴To prevent corruption risks like in "Energoatom," it is necessary to: reboot energy companies (which Prime Minister Svyrydenko should do), conduct checks before appointments—if it is not a competitive position, anti-corruption bodies and other law enforcement agencies should provide relevant information.
🔴Regarding the appointment of the Head of the President's Office: "Today there are so many such questions [...], so many different proposals, exchanges of opinions. Honestly, the war is much more important, so it feels like it's easier to liquidate the Office than to appoint a person."

🇨🇿Andrej Babiš, who promised to cut aid to Ukraine, has been appointed Prime Minister of the Czech Republic.
Babiš's populist ANO party won the parliamentary elections in October.
Babiš, 71, who previously served as the Czech Prime Minister from 2017 to 2021, is now the oldest politician ever to lead the country's government.
In his speech, the new Czech Prime Minister promised to "fight for the interests of citizens not only at home but throughout the world."
However, he holds quite rigid views on the issue of aid to Ukraine. Notably, before winning the elections, Babiš threatened to cancel the initiative to supply ammunition to Ukraine.
His party believes that military support only prolongs the war, and that without Western aid, Kyiv would sooner agree to "peace."

The Russians struck gas infrastructure and shelled several regions this morning. Here is what is currently known about the consequences:
🔴Critical equipment was damaged due to the attack on gas facilities, the Ministry of Energy reported. Employees were not injured.
🔴The Russians struck a civilian car with a drone in Zaporizhzhia during the day. The driver and a passenger were wounded.
🔴The border area of Sumy Oblast was also under attack — two men were killed, and one more person was injured.
🔴Two people were injured by Russian shelling in Kherson Oblast as well — the occupiers struck Urozhaine and Kherson itself.

❗️Here are a few more statements from Trump's interview with Politico:
🔴The US President said that Russia currently has a "stronger negotiating position," and "Ukraine has already lost a significant amount of territory, and you cannot call that a victory."
🔴According to him, the fact that Ukraine would not become a member of NATO "was clear long before Putin."
🔴He called Zelensky a "good salesman" who forced Joe Biden to give him $350 billion, but at the same time "lost 25% of his country."
🔴Trump called Crimea a beautiful place, washed by the ocean on four sides. He reiterated the opinion that the peninsula was given to Russia by former US President Barack Obama.
🔴Trump also repeated once again that if he were president, "this war would not have started."

A mourning service was held in Izium for Ukrainians killed by Russia during the occupation of the city in 2022.
For three years, the Izium City Territorial Community, together with experts, volunteers, and relevant services, carried out the exhumation, identification, and reburial of bodies.
The work was completed on November 24 this year: 449 people were identified and reburied, including 23 servicemen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU).

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 12:11

This needs a separate post but it's from the Kyiv Post.

Now, the Kyiv Post's first sentence is alarmist. Also this is a bill and it seems very unlikely to succeed.

But there has been a sense that this has been coming under the Trump administration and MAGA cult for a long time, and it seems likely to be a push that will grow rather than diminish. Hope I'm wrong.

Kyiv Post Telegram

The United States is moving to leave NATO.
A bill has been introduced that would withdraw the country from the Alliance and redirect billions of dollars toward domestic defense, Republican congressman Thomas Massie announced.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Natsku · 10/12/2025 12:21

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 11:56

So exactly what part of the statement is incorrect that prior to the Ukraine war in 2021 and before, Finnish defence spending was around 1.3 % and has now risen to 2.4%.

This increase was indeed in large part due to an expensive purchase of F35s. Will Finland continue to spend 2.4% after the F35s are delivered or will it drop back? Who knows.

Which part of my statement that the US spends more on defence and less on social welfare than the UK and Europe is factually incorrect?

I will concede that the US does spend a higher proportion of GDP on healthcare than say Europe but this is largely due to it being a more expensive country (doctors salaries etc) and an unhealthy population.

You may disagree with my views that "Europe is all about warm words but not much real commitment to Ukraine " - but I never knowingly post incorrect information.

You seem to have missed my explanation that even with the lower defence spending Finland has always been one of the most prepared countries in Europe, and never stopped viewing Russia as dangerous, while you thought it was the invasion changing things. Do you retract your incorrect information?

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 12:56

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 11:58

@1dayatatime at this point, pet, you seem to be here to cause trouble so no I'm not engaging in your need to try to distract and waste time.

No I am intent on a) highlighting and correcting false statements and b) pointing out that having a group whinge about Trump is not exactly helpful towards Ukrainian territorial integrity and c) that Europe needs to be the one providing the military assistance in a European war.

I genuinely fear that if Ukraine is either defeated or suffers territorial losses then the lessons will still not be learnt by European nations and that Putin seeing the weakness of Europe and its citizens (who for example object to national service) will be emboldened to further action in Europe.

In short, shit has got real and Europe needs to stop dicking around, because the US is no longer there to bail them out.

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 13:09

Natsku · 10/12/2025 12:21

You seem to have missed my explanation that even with the lower defence spending Finland has always been one of the most prepared countries in Europe, and never stopped viewing Russia as dangerous, while you thought it was the invasion changing things. Do you retract your incorrect information?

You seem to think that "being prepared for a conflict" or "recognising a threat" is more important than actual defence spending as a percentage of GDP.

But it's not going to help the Finns much, no matter how prepared they are for a conflict or how seriously they take Russia as a threat, it they are only armed with outdated weapons.

So let's take a look at their defence spending over time most recently in the 2020s.

2023: 2.5%
2022: 1.9%
2021: 1.29%
2020: 1.43%

Now something major happened in 2022 that caused prompted Finland to increase its defence spending from 1.29% in 2021 to 1.9% in 2022 to 2.5% in 2023 - now I wonder what that might have been.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 10/12/2025 13:12

Does anyone remember that mansplainer who was always so very convinced he was correct and very often missed the point?

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 13:25

Southernecho · 10/12/2025 12:01

Posting articles 5 or 6 months old in the fast moving world of Team Trump, is not supporting your assertions that all is good with Trump/Nato and Europe.

Weapons supplies to Ukraine are falling, Europe simply cannot buy enough from the US & tbh even this policy of selling weapons is despicable in itself.

Trump has chosen sides & it is NOT Europe, let alone Ukraine, it is Putin and Russia.
Anyone cannot see that is fool or worse.

Given where we are on defence spend and preparedness, the US now pulling the rug out, is not what an ally would do, then there are tariffs, thats damaged Europe's economies.

America has fallen a very long way from when Russia was an enemy of the USA and we had a reliable ally.

Firstly it would s not my assertion that all is well in the world of the US, Europe and NATO. It is my assertion that the US is pulling back from providing defence for Europe and sees Europe as being responsible for providing military support to Ukraine in what is a European war.

Whether you agree or not with the US stance Europe needs to quickly wake up and smell the coffee and effectively double the amount of their military spending and double the amount of military aid to Ukraine.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening- what I do see is Ukraine getting thrown under a bus, lots of hand ringing in Europe blaming big bad Trump, yet still failing to collectively increase their defence spending or get countries on the front line to do it whilst not increasing their own (eg Poland compared to Spain).

Russia is then emboldened to make their next move perhaps on Moldova.
Unless the above hard reality is recognised and yes this means cuts in other Government spending, then we are sleep walking into another conflict.

Right now Ukraine and Ukrainian lives are acting as Europe's front line - the very least we can do is provide them with the weapons to do the job.

Natsku · 10/12/2025 13:26

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 13:09

You seem to think that "being prepared for a conflict" or "recognising a threat" is more important than actual defence spending as a percentage of GDP.

But it's not going to help the Finns much, no matter how prepared they are for a conflict or how seriously they take Russia as a threat, it they are only armed with outdated weapons.

So let's take a look at their defence spending over time most recently in the 2020s.

2023: 2.5%
2022: 1.9%
2021: 1.29%
2020: 1.43%

Now something major happened in 2022 that caused prompted Finland to increase its defence spending from 1.29% in 2021 to 1.9% in 2022 to 2.5% in 2023 - now I wonder what that might have been.

As I said, that increase was due to massive equipment purchases - the F35s mainly, also navy vessels. All purchases and increases planned before the invasion happened - the project to update the fighter jets was started in 2015.

The invasion of course has an impact, but its not the sole factor here (and of course some of that impact will be the replacement of equipment Finland has given to Ukraine - given, not sold)

dibly · 10/12/2025 14:13

I’m sorry, I’m not taking lessons on supporting Ukraine from the US. Fucking audacity. Get your own country In order

LlttledrummergirI · 10/12/2025 14:37

In short, shit has got real and Europe needs to stop dicking around, because the US is no longer there to bail them out.

Next time America wants to invade other countries because nuclear weapons, they can fuck off and do it alone.

America and Trump has betrayed western ideals and thrown Ukraine under the bu in the process.

They, and those who try to paint this in a good light for America can go fuck themselves.

1dayatatime · 10/12/2025 14:51

LlttledrummergirI · 10/12/2025 14:37

In short, shit has got real and Europe needs to stop dicking around, because the US is no longer there to bail them out.

Next time America wants to invade other countries because nuclear weapons, they can fuck off and do it alone.

America and Trump has betrayed western ideals and thrown Ukraine under the bu in the process.

They, and those who try to paint this in a good light for America can go fuck themselves.

Hmmm my focus is on dealing with the current hard reality and how to best preserve Ukrainian territorial integrity and save Ukrainian lives.

Those that are more focused on whining about how horrible Trump is rather than the best way of dealing with current reality of the war and the current suffering of Ukrainians (which is Europe being the sole provider of military aid) are not helping Ukraine.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread