I was fired for Gross Misconduct today.

[HoldingOnatoday]

Just need to talk to someone outside of my family really. It’s been a tough time recently, lost my mum and then I got Pneumonia and ended up in intensive care for six weeks.

I returned to work on Friday and had an investigation meeting where I was accused of submitting fraudulent expense mileage claims. I disputed some which were left on an agree to disagrees. Some id accidentally left in, where I’d been to visit clients homes, the clients had cancelled and I’d forgot to remove the mileage. Its auto done for us but alas I should’ve manually removed them. I accept responsibility and this is on me.

I’ve put in £10,000 (I do a lot of driving/stay in hotels) worth of expenses in the last year and £900 was found to be fraud. These were the cancelled ones I’d not deleted. They’re going to contact the police and I’m not sure if anything will come to it. It was done more job negligence (I’ve not been up to par) than maliciously. I’ve been scattered brained, driving 7 hours a day for work often and running on empty.

The thing is I’m good at my job, I’m a good person I’d like to think. But I’m so broken by this, I’ve finally got a good credit rating, which will now be damaged by mortgage repayments and bills being missed. I’m also scared at the prospect of going to prison/declaring this to future employers. I have offered to pay back and this was rejected.

Im not looking for Sympathy, just for a way forward because I really feel like ending it all today. I’ve applied for Christmas temp work today but not sure if anything will come from it.

But the person on maternity came back and subsequently OP had nothing to do. I doubt they'll be hiring anyone.

I agree with everyone that the chances of going to jail for something like this would be very very tiny.

However £900 is a lot of money. So I can understand why they are considering fraud. You will have signed to say they are correct. How much was the amount that they agreed to ‘agree to disagree’ Did these inaccurate/untrue claims happen on an almost daily basis?

Have you ever had any warnings at all before at work? Or had you ever been advised that there were errors in your claims?

Contact ACAS straightaway for employment advice or your union (if you have one).ACAS are free btw

Just want to say I’m sorry OP. Pre pandemic I randomly did a lot of travelling for my grad scheme. I remember finding the travel platform to print off train tickets a nightmare. I once got in trouble for £250 in “defrauded tickets”. My line manager saw it was a honest to God mistake so stuck up for me but I just want to let you know I can see how these things happen. wishing you well x

That not what OP said.

She said if a cancellation is recorded in the system it sometimes deletes and sometimes doesn't. Employees have to check if the system's done it or not.

It's ripe for mistakes.

I’m not dismissing it. Nothing has ever been brought to my attention ever by my employer before this and not my manager either. I’m not dismissing my incompetence by the way, and I’m happy to repay it or even money on top a fine. And I’ve not added the circumstances to dismiss what I’ve done, but just to say I was scatty. This wasn’t malicious, we do expenses once a month. Some months I was doing over 3000-5000 miles a month and the claims I’d be doing on an evening when I’d get home most often late, and I’ll admit- I was scatty with them but it wasn’t malicious or intended as an extra buck.

Sounds like you're off sick alot and your managers realised you've submitted expenses when you're not working. That's triggered an investigation and they've fired you. I'd understand a few occurrences, but not £900 worth! It's your fault! I'm really sorry about your mum though, it's hard losing a parent.

@HoldingOnatoday Hmmm, I've skimmed your posts & the whole saga seems very rushed by the management & HR to me.

I wholeheartedly urge you to contact ACAS as you will get sound advice & after that an employment lawyer is an another step.

From my POV you were overstretched & overworked for a period of time, & having you working to targets & travelling so much - given the extent of your expenses - it seems to me that your management were not paying attention to their duty of care & some may argue they were exploiting you, well beyond the reasonable expectations of employment.

Additionally all the audit & hoo-ha taken place - if I have this right - has taken place whilst you have been signed off work because of a serious illness. Neither you nor your representative were aware or available to counter any context or claims.

That the expenses system chugs along without due diligence...

This matter must be challenged. They are relying on you not being up to scratch after stress & serious illness, get advice from ACAS & a bastard lawyer. Likely your manager who let these expenses through had thrown your reputation under the bus to cover their arse.

As you will not want to work there anymore (surely?), then a claim for unfair dismissal-or as advised by ACAS/specialist lawyer- may possibly get you minimum of vanilla reference & possibly some small £ compensation.

Get expert professional advice.

I am no legal expert but agree with contacting ACAS. If they auto submit the expenses then it seems a far fetched accusation to accuse you of claiming fraudulently.

Yes, you made a mistake by not removing some and that’s your oversight. But you didn’t put those claims on there.

Also if you’ve done to a client to discover they aren’t in them the claim for mileage should surely still stand as you made the travel?

Did you ever underreport your mileage? I think the problem is is that it’s such a big margin of error.

Op please don't do anything silly. We ALL make mistakes! And I know it must feel awful right now but you'll move on and find something else and you'll find a new career. Don't despair. Get to the GP to speak to them. Get some advice and speak to your union (if you have one).

Speak to anyone who needs to be paid and set up payment plans etc.
You'll be ok.

50 miles per week is nothing and given not only did OP NOT CLAIM this mileage in the first place the companies own system did and she was ill and looking after a sick mother and doing probably 15 hour days if we take in to account the amount of driving she did. She missed it. It was not intentional.
What was her managers excuse for claiming this for her

If we break this 50 miles per week up into days that is 10 miles per day, 5 miles there and 5 miles back
Are we absolutely certain that the systems calculations of all the journeys anyone took were exactly the mileage that the system said it was.

I would argue that if she looked at how long the journeys that the system claimed on her behalf were for from the whole time she was at the company. I can almost guarantee that they owe her money and probably owe the others who do this type of job.

Whilst you can get an idea of the distance between two points it doesn’t take account of of councils not letting Google know they have made certain roads residents only or you can’t drive northward on a certain road between 9am -5pm or there are roadworks, traffic accidents and diversions in place etc So all adding to the mileage travelled.

When on a long journey does the system take account of the mileage that getting off the motorway to go have a coffee and a break even in a motorway service station can add an extra .25mile which adds up over time.

I would say that their system is flawed and fighting it could open up a whole can of worms in their expenses over all their staff doing these journeys past and present

Please HoldingOnatoday ring Acas and explain what has happened
Look at your home insurance policy under legal cover. It’s not usually something you choose to add on. It’s just part of your standard insurance policy

Get in touch with your home insurers and ask about the procedure to claim through their legal cover or what ever it is called.

When Exh had his issues the home insurance company gave him a list of employment law solicitors they dealt with in our area. All bills were then sent to the home insurance company.

There are so many holes in this dismissal

I would also say that the fact your boss missed this when he should have checked and it appears nothing has happened to him is a huge issue and could open up discrimination issues

The reason for adding in discrimination is because whilst being proved correct in a court of law regarding employment law the payout has an upper limit to how much you can be paid. Where as if there is proven discrimination then there is no upper limit.
That is when companies legal team have to explain to those in charge and who did this to you that you could bankrupt the company if you win and they will explain to them the weaknesses in their case

In exh’s case and from what we found out companies especially large ones with a national or international name or brand or those on the stock exchange or those that just know that their actions haven’t portrayed them in a great light if any of this gets out will damage the brand, the name or even stock market prices plus the calibre of future employees. Anyone who is any good won’t want to go work for a company that treats its employees with such disdain so will settle out of court.

I do not think for one moment that they have called the police. That is a threat to keep you scared and wont sue them

Also I can’t imagine the police taking time to actually do anything for something that involves just £900. It would make them a laughing stock that they would pursue a “crime” that involved £900 but won’t pursue the guy who robs around £10,000 per week in my area.

£900 isn’t even on their radar.

Now if you had been speeding and had racked up £900 worth of fines then they might pursue you.

I think you have a very strong case that your dismissal was unfair, probably as they gave you a permanent contract rather than a maternity cover, which sounds like it was an error on their part. Your sick leave probably had a part to play, again totally unfair, and possibly discriminatory.

All of this means that you won't go to prison - there is more than reasonable doubt.

I hope ACAS can help, and you should consider going to see a specialist employment lawyer if you can afford it, you may be able to negotiate a redundancy package.

Good luck, you've had an awful run of things, take some time to rest and recover.

Please look after yourself and seek support - please do not do anything drastic. This can be sorted and perhaps you’ll get some much needed rest to look after yourself in the meantime. Apply for any benefits in the interim. It sounds like an honest mistake x

I can see how this happened and I feel for you.
It sounds like you have a plan in place and I want to wish you well.
You still sound really quite ill and if you're struggling for oxygen this can all have a knock on effect to mental health too so please do bare this in mind.
It will all get better in time.

Technically the OP hasn't claimed for anything, the system offers the payment unless the OP declines it.

Upon the issue being raised, the OP has offered to remedy the situation by repaying the amount of the error.

Fraud is by its nature an offence of acting to permanently deprive, like theft. But in this case the OP took no action, other than to willingly offer repayment - I'd love the opportunity to argue this one in court!

I'd say, despite the time period fraud is going to be difficult to prove, usually it is easily proven because the party making the claims is wilfully putting in false claims, bogus receipts etc.

consider going to see a specialist employment lawyer if you can afford it, you may be able to negotiate a redundancy package

Home insurance policies usually have a standard legal cover which does include employment law.

So it is free.

Used it before and all bills were sent to Home Insurance company

Technically she has, as she has to validate it before submitting.

You say it yourself here, you were scatty with your checking, and the system is one of declining money, not claiming for it - you did not act maliciously, you offered to repay when the matter was raised. You did not wilfully seek to permanently deprive your employer.

Therefore no case for theft or fraud can be proven.

Take a deep breath and contact a solicitor, most will give a free consultation, and go from there.

Given no reporting of mileage took place it was not possible to report anything

I would contact the Citizens Advice Bureau asap if you're not sure where to start in getting legal advice and benefits info etc. Good luck 💕

You need to appeal against the dismissal. Has anyone told you this yet?

yes by all means speak to ACAS but get your appeal in asap.

Check your household insurance. That sometimes includes cover for small legal issues. Might be enough for you to get someone to write an email to the company saying you're willing to pay it back to settle the errors.

Firstly take a big breath and be kind to yourself. You haven’t done this deliberately the system let you down and you forgot to check. Considering how much you claim it is a small amount and firing you does sound excessive.

Secondly can you try getting 30 mins free legal advice with an employment specialist lawyer? See if you have a case for unfair dismissal?

At the moment this feels huge but it is temporary, the storm will blow over and you can get through this.

Praying for you OP 🙏

Im guessing you work in sales. You are not going to go to prison. I can assure you of that100%
If your employers were above board there would be policies and procedures in place to protect not only you but themselves. They might put you on garden leave whilst investigating any irregularities if they were a legitimate operation.
Speak to ACAS and seek emotional and financial support whilst in this awful situation. I've been there myself; accused of physically hurting a vulnerable client whilst trying to protect them. I covered all bases. I had a breakdown, don't let that happen to you.