Why does Palestine bring out such strong feelings?

[Saveusename]

I really don’t want this to become about individuals’ feelings about the conflict. There are plenty of threads for that.

I am interested in why Palestine provokes such a strong feelings about civilian in Britain. We didn’t see weekly marches and such intense, passionate feelings regarding any other conflicts over in, say, the past ten years (Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Congo, Somalia, and, of course, Ukraine). These all involve thousands of civilian casualties caused by conflict.

What is it about Palestine in particular that causes British people to feel so passionately about it?

Someone said to me today that, for them, it was the most pressing political issue. They have never even mentioned any of the other conflicts above. It got me thinking about it. If you care greatly about what happens in Palestine, why Palestine and not the other conflicts?

Please don’t come on and say you care about them all. It might be true but there is no doubt that the reaction to what’s happening in Palestine in Britain is much greater than the rest, which barely cause a murmur.

In some, like Afghanistan, the citizens seem (sadly) to have chosen the Taliban- not all of them, but they were able to take over (again) with remarkable ease. Marching to "liberate" Afghanistan from a system that they've chosen themselves seems pointless.

You cannot be serious? Have you no awareness of what’s going on in Afghanistan whatsoever? It is on Sky news as we speak. There is no excuse, it is regular reported.

Palestine chose Hamas knowing that their aim was to remove Israel from the place of the planet and knowing how Israel reacts when threatened. Should they also be left to it because they made their bed in electing Hamas? If not, why not? Why is it different?

Britain sells arms to Saudi which is being accused of all sorts of human atrocities in Yemen.

I find myself asking that question all the time. It’s so bizarre how obsessed people are with this particular war. In my eyes, any war that creates similar civilian deaths is just as bad.

I can only see that’s it’s anti semitism. When Muslims are killing other Muslims, it doesn’t get the same attention. Jews killing Muslims on the other hand…..

I totally agree. I have argued a lot on here that a lot of people just don’t understand antisemitism. They don’t know much history, they don’t know the ancient tropes, libels and slurs that are reanimated and reinvented by successive generations. They don’t know they’re antisemitic, they literally don’t know what they are saying - but crucially, because they are invested in their ideas of themselves as progressive, compassionate, ‘liberal’ (a word that’s lost a lot of its meaning politically) they don’t want to know.

none of this means that criticism of Israel, its leaders, policies, etc is off the table. It certainly doesn’t mean that the pain and empathy felt for those killed and suffering in Gaza isn’t real. But witness the knot-tying on this thread as to why other conflicts don’t elicit the same response. Some of them are understandable, in particular the frustration of feeling that one’s own country and govt is somehow complicit in the suffering of civilians, but ultimately, none really hold water.

I think it's because nearly every family in Europe felt the effects of WW2 in some way. My dad grew up without a father because he died to fight against oppression. Those scars run throughout our national consciousness and to see within two generations the oppressed become the oppressor, has hit a nerve with a lot of people. The Israeli Government is not fighting a war, it is commiting wholesale slaughter. You cannot fight a conventional war against terrorists and most people think Israel response is neither reasonable or proportional because of the sheer amount of collateral damage Gaza has sustained in order to kill a handful of nutjobs.

They can’t negotiate with the government though, can they? Because that is Hamas. They knew Israel’s policy of retaliation. They knew Israel would never surrender the hostages (as we would expect our government not to do if British citizens were taken).

Jewish people and the Jewish state shouldn’t be held to a higher standard than ourselves due to the Holocaust, surely? Isn’t that using Jewish trauma to shame Jewish people?

But interesting take that part of it may be because so many of our recent ancestors fought in WW2 that some British people somehow feel we’re deserved a debt from Jewish people and entitled to expect more from them. Maybe there is something in that which is contributing to the strength of feeling.

I dont know how true it is but there were articles before the attack saying there had been a high level of peace and integration before the attack
There was a pass system to allow Palestinian people to come into Israel etc for work .
At that point saudi or Qatar were also getting close to Israel and hamas can't survive without an enemy and conflict so they or rather the rich puppet masters who never get their hands dirty cooked up this wicked attack.

The area itself is hugely significant to many many people

we are part of the issue with the creation of Isreal

the injustice of the west turning a blind eye to how Isreal have behaved, we don’t always set the same high standards to other countries. Isreal is kore alibied to western countries than other ME countries are

and of course for sown it’s simple anti semitism as it is racism for those who feel Palestinians who have bought this on themselves

They can’t negotiate with the government though, can they? Because that is Hamas. They knew Israel’s policy of retaliation. They knew Israel would never surrender the hostages (as we would expect our government not to do if British citizens were taken).
But Hamas aren't a government really in the way that most people would recognise. I don't really count an election 20 years ago as part of a functioning democracy. Call them tyrants or despots or terrorists but by calling them a government shift blame for their actions onto the powerless.

Your point about deserving a debt is close, but maybe it's more a feeling of betrayal. People said it was the war to end all wars and lest we forget but here we are seeing man's inhumanity to man once again and all that sacrifice was in vain.

Absolutely not. Criticising Isreal is not antisemitic.

Yes, but I meant that they are running Gaza. Running it badly and sacrificing their own civilians by using them as human shields, but running it nevertheless. What else can Israel do to get the hostages back? It could not appeal to any official authority to tackle Hamas together, because Hamas is the official authority.

Israel has not betrayed anyone. They don’t owe us anything. There have been many wars since WW2, many taking place now, including on European soil. But there is no marching in the streets or feelings of betrayal about those. It is holding Jewish people to a higher standard.

But why are so many people so keen to criticise Israel whilst never uttering a word about any other country?

The civil war in Sudan has killed over 150000 people. There is famine, confirmed genocide. But no-one can blame the Jews so it's barely mentioned.

And no other violence seems to evoke such strong feelings like marching on the street.

why is that?

While I agree that antisemitism plays a part, it is not the whole story.

We tend to be more aware of what's happening in the countries previously ruled over by Britain than those with different colonial pasts.

A widespread Jewish Diaspora means that there will always be an interest in Israel. Ditto the widespread Palestinian Diaspora.

Geographical nearness plays a part.

The near annihilation of Jews in Europe in the 20th century plays a massive part.

The situation in Israel and Gaza is fertile ground for Internet culture warriors. Most of whom don't give a shit about the real lives of Palestinians or Israelis. It's all about monetising controversy with clicks and "content".

The 7th October attack was the most horrifying thing people across the world have ever witnessed, IMO. Of course people will talk about it.

The war in Gaza has been horrifying to witness. Of course people will talk about it.

I know that antisemitism plays a part and crosses over with other reasons. But it is not the whole story @Saveusename.

Then why has there been a 117% increase in antisemitic indents at UK universities since October 7th 2023?

Do you not think people have explained why to you several times on this thread?
How is it asking a genuine question if you get loads of answers and then still ask the same question?

Horrifying though it was, the Oct 7th incident was not the most horrifying thing the world has ever witnessed. But why make it a race to the bottom anyway- all horrors should be condemned.

My impression is that the crux of the obsession with this conflict above and beyond others that are objectively as bad or worse, is that for lots of people it typifies political tropes about who is good and who is bad.

On the left, the oppressor/oppressed narrative has come to dominate politics. If you subscribe to this philosophy then it’s impossible to look at Israel - which is wealthy, technologically advanced, similar to our own society in many ways and whose citizens are often perceived as white - and not see them as the bad actor punching down. Cue the rhetoric about colonialism and the obsession with wedging British colonial guilt into the devastation (“WE are responsible for this happening”).

On the right, the narrative is often about protecting democracy and European culture from outside forces - often Islam. The attacks on October 7th could not have more perfectly encapsulated the negative images people have of Islam and the Palestinians elected government Hamas, and this has been leveraged shamelessly by the right. It’s the tale of a plucky white democracy fighting off medieval attacks from Muslims, a story that goes right back into the history of the crusades. Cue the rhetoric about them being uncivilised, protecting women and children, etc etc.

It’s a lot harder for these people to pick a good guy and a bad guy in the other conflicts you’ve named. People are either disinterested because the two sides don’t look like them, or they don’t feel comfortable labelling one side a bad guy because both are minorities in the UK, or there isn’t such an obvious power and wealth imbalance - take your pick.

All of this comes down to a significant proportion of our population needing to see the world as if they’re reading a children’s storybook with heroes and villains. Lots of people are incapable of accepting any nuance - these are the same people who if they change their minds on the subject, will simply recast the hero as the villain and vice versa.

This isn’t all of the people following the conflict by any means, but it does make me very angry to see people using these conflicts as props for their own political narratives rather than having the empathy and energy to extend to all of the bloody awful atrocities happening around the world. It’s selfish and it’s self centred, and if you bring it up every one of them will tell you that they’re profoundly invested for purely moral reasons and not because it’s in some way personally validating their political beliefs or prejudices.

I wasn't making it a race to anything. Its not a race.

It is the horror that I witnessed at the time. I stopped watching the evening news for a while after that.

Its the horror I've witnessed in Gaza. I have stopped watching the evening news numerous times over the past 2 years.

I'm sorry that you have witnessed worse.

@Imbrocator thanks, I think you've summarised it exactly.
I get tired of those tropes you refer to, and it's frustrating to have the British colonial guilt wedged in, so often. I find that it's almost impossible to discuss nuance - people get very heated very quickly and quite accusatory. Not reading the thread properly and jumping on something you've said. Wrongly.
It's such a complicated geo -political conflict, and so many lies and misunderstandings get repeated. It cannot be reduced to chants and slogans, it's far too multi layered for that.

This really.

Is the USA and the UK arming Nigeria?

War is not genocide and the British Government have come out and confirmed their position to be so.

The Belfour declaration was over 100 years ago - the British people cannot flagulate themselves on a political agreement that went terribly wrong at a time when the world was a very different place.

Hamas have most certainly won the propaganda war - I will give them that and the West have fallen hook, line and sinker for their campaign - it actually is quite shocking the lack of critical thinking with regard to this conflict. Clear indications of anti - semitism here.

There have been many atrocities, many genocides. Some of them get mass media attention in the west some do not. It usually comes down to geo political reasons.

Why do you think Apartheid in South Africa got mass media attention?

What about Syria, huge media attention here?

You could probably write an essay or even a book on why these got media attention while other atrocities did not.

It’s never one reason.

Because this is in the chat section and I don’t want it explained to me. I want to hear from different people.