Do you know how people managed their daily relationships in NI during the Troubles?

[jonthebatiste]

I hope I'm not asking too difficult a question. I'm finding myself struggling with a new situation in my life, and looking for experience and wisdom from those who have personal knowledge.

Without wanting to draw a false equivalence, where we live (in the US) we are surrounded by people who hold diametrically opposite views to us on Trump and Israel/Palestine. I'm British and had a coddled life as a child in 1980s/90s London, in these respects. My childhood and youth was the heyday of the 20th century: stable, prosperous, conflict free in my own life. I've never had to experience day to day life where conflict is the norm.

I'm trying to work out how to handle this in the way that's best and true for me, and what to model for my children. I can't go about denying entry to every other person we know or come across simply because of their politics (or can I?); nor do I want to condone or seem to accept views which are abhorrent to me and DH. So I'm thinking back to the 70s and 80s and wondering what people did during the Troubles. Did children form friendships across partisan divides? Did parents have friendly neighborly relationships with people who stood for opposite ideals? How did parents guide their children through the issues - not care about seeming to be fair? Automatically inducting them into their own beliefs? The only knowledge I have is from novels and movies (and Derry Girls) - I'm sure they're not realistic. They can't possibly be.

I know this isn't a one-size-fits-all situation, and I know considerations aren't the same. There's also no violence on my doorstep - the biggest difference.

I'd be so grateful for any thoughts. I apologize in advance if this is raking up best-forgotten memories. And I'd be grateful for this not to descend into party/national politics: I'm sure there will be people on both sides struggling with the same thing.

Most Americans regardless of politics are very polite and have good manners. Your comparison to the Troubles is ridiculous. You are in no danger of being kneecapped or your house fire bombed for your views. The kids were all in segregated schools and cross the barricade romance would get you shot.

My extended family (Belfast area) tell me that they simply “stayed in their places” to avoid trouble. So no friends from across the other political side nor the other geographical areas, within & without the city.
One family member lived near one of the physical divides & frequently had items, even petrol bombs, thrown into their street - these didn’t make the news.
We also learnt not to ask how some relatives earned their incomes.
It was scary & stressful more times than not.

Oh for God's sake, don't be so ridiculous.

Thank you for your replies.

Times are changing here; the division is no longer polite and respectful. I am not in any danger of being kneecapped or having my house fire bombed; I am in danger of being reported to ICE and being deported. This isn’t an exaggeration. It has happened to the parent of one of my DCs’ school friends.

I did say I didn’t want to draw a false equivalence. The Troubles are the only co flick in my stable lifetime that I can draw a comparison to.

It’s interesting you should speak of children in segregated schools. A concept with a loaded history here. In some states, albeit not my own, this is rapidly becoming the case again (not by law though; was it by law in NI?).

Staying in our place is in fact what we are doing. There are neighborhoods we don’t go to or through. We aren’t white. It’s not patrolled by armed police - but given DC and Chicago, that may well come to pass, under the guise of security and safety. Was it blatant division by armed forces in NI along sectarian lines, or was it also under the guise of safety and common sense?

I’m not scared or stressed yet. There’s no imminent danger. But we’re just 8 months in.

I just want to repeat: I am not drawing a false equivalence. I just want to learn from history, if I can.

Think about how peace came about. While far from perfect, there was a willingness to live in the grey. There's two names for the walled city (Derry / Londonderry) and two names for the 1998 agreement (Good Friday Agreement / the Belfast Agreement). It's not about perfection, it's creating enough space for people with radically different views to coexist without violence.

In politics in the US, campaigns seems to name a villain - we're the good guys and you're the bad guys - which leaves very little space for compromise. Peace came about in NI when the leaders stopped insisting that their community's narrative was the only truth.

Well it was pretty segregated geographically so there were only catholics living in some areas and only Protestant in some. There were a few mixed areas but people there were less affected day to day. I think people in strongholds didn’t change their views much.

Is it not just about explaining people have different views? Can you give an example of what you mean?

Schools are not segregated by law. Parents could choose what school - still can.

This.

OP’s post is infuriating.

I am not drawing a false equivalence.

Yes, you are.

There was an actual war in NI during the Troubles. British forces patrolling the streets. Bombings and bomb threats as a daily equivalent.

I’m not minimising your current situation. But it’s not a war, you don’t face actual bodily harm.

I loved in an area that was quite mixed...surrounded by areas that were completely loyalist or nationalist. I was at secondary school through the seventies. It was slightly mixed.
There is a WhatsApp group which makes me a bit sad...so many people still live within a small radius...but particularly the people in the group only knew each other as teens. It wasn't safe to go out and about in the evenings.

@Babetti Thanks. Everything feels so far away from that moment of accepting the other side as an equal opponent. It feels like things are just ramping up to get a whole lot worse, with one side asserting an increasingly dominant position backed by force. I’ve been here almost 20 years, it’s never been like this before. But it’s been horrifically worse in the living memory of tens of millions of people. The institutional muscle memory is there. Only a fool would turn a blind eye to it.

@HollyhockDaysthe “natural” segregation is very much in place in my city. There are no-go places for us, which are safe havens for others. Not on a daily basis today, but I don’t imagine it was always like that in NI either at the outset.

Nobody has been talking about anything, openly. It’s all behind closed doors and only just beginning to seep out. There are friends whose family members are triple Trumpers: they just don’t talk about politics but celebrate the holidays together. I wouldn’t feel able to eat at the table of someone who believes that abortions should be banned nationwide, that same sex marriage should be banned nationwide, who believe in banning books from public schools (these are just everyday examples of things my friends tell me about; my parents live in the UK, my in laws are liberals). I’d feel like a fraud. Absent an agreement to respectfully disagree, any conviviality would be based on a lie. And there is no discussing amongst friends; everyone just ignores the news….and then someone says something that makes your jaw drop and want to not be in the same room as them.

Another example is a party my teen DC went to two weekends ago at which the hosts had draped the Israeli flag around the venue (the party had nothing to do with Judaism or any political leaning, it was a sort of “back to school” gathering open to the whole grade and their families), and after the older kids had had a few they were heard (over the music) talking about their plans to enlist and “finish the job” after graduation, hoping to one day buy a condo in the Gaza riviera etc. It was a private party, the hosts are free to hold whatever views they want (although it has to be said the opposite view would see you kidnapped and disappeared to a Louisiana jail these days); that’s not the point of my OP. These kids are at my DCs’ school, which is multi-cultural and has a strong Arab/Muslim population (I belong to neither side - again, I don’t want to get into the politics of it). Their parents are in our circle. How do we continue now that we know their views are exclusive of ours and actively promote the annihilation of the families of others of our friends? I repeat: this isn’t an equivalence, the violence isn’t happening here. The question is about daily dealings with people who you know to be so wholly on the other side.

It sounds like Protestants and Catholics segregated themselves, and an architecture is in place for them to remain seemingly respectfully segregated. I wonder whether that it is for the best and where we are heading.

But like that’s life. In the UK there are people who hold wildly differing political views within families. You either grin and bear it or challenge them and either have respectful discourse or a massive row. I don’t think it confined to the US. I think polarised political views are increasingly the norm.

It is a completely ridiculous comparison. However, as someone who grew up in the Troubles, if you were mixing with someone from the other “side”, you would studiously avoid talking about contentious topics.

I did say in my post that there’s no violence here and that’s the biggest difference. My post isn’t about that (how can it be). I remember enough of the bombings, the images on TV, the speeches anger. This isn’t that, not where I am. This post isn’t about that.

It’s about living cheek by jowl with people who are so diametrically opposite to you. How did people do that? The divergence of opinion, the absolute denial of the other’s right to their position before the peace treaty, is not dissimilar. NI is the only comparator I have. I’m reading it’s through segregation and a right to allow the other to live with their beliefs in peace. Does this mean nobody talks about their differences now? Do the parties mix at all? Does it feel peaceful, day by day? Do children play together now, go to the same schools?

If you don't like the views people hold then you do what most people do you withdraw quietly. Where you can't, you be non committal, change the subject and try not to get involved if you don't want to.

If the situation is worrying you that much can you return to the UK?

Thank you. This is the sort of insight I was looking for. Day to day life. Suspecting but not knowing that the woman in the next cubicle at work is from “the other side”. It means you’re suspicious and second-guessing all the time - which is where we are here. This is new here. We’ve never had to live like this before. We can’t assume that people in our circle aren’t actively interested in the diminishing or removal of other people in our circle or indeed ourselves.

Yes, this isn’t exclusive to the USA and yes polarized views are becoming the norm. I can’t think I’m the only person asking herself these questions. Perhaps your flag-flying thing in August has thrown up such situations.

Thanks. You don’t feel not standing up for Eg same sex marriage or equal access to abortion is a betrayal, or leaving space for opinions to exist which would see your friends barred from having equals right to you? Your position is low-conflict, but this is what I’m trying to work out for myself and to model to my DC. Do we shun conflict in the face of views we find contrary to our principles?

We can indeed move back to the UK, but if the news/polls are accurate you’re not far behind us with Nigel Farage…

I don’t think Derry Girls was too far off the mark to be honest… Kevin and Sadie books have a read of them.

I do understand what you're getting at but generally you can't change these peoples' opinions and the best that will happen is that you'll get labelled a bleeding heart liberal. Choose who you can influence carefully if you think you can.

And yes, unfortunately there's a general lurch to the right in Europe so we're all in the same boat (scuse the pun!) in that regard. On the plus side we don't have a population who broadly believes in the right to bear arms..

Of course it is realistic. That's why they were called " the troubles".
Each area was strictly segregated and as a rule people didn't form relationships with people with different views . People were shot and places were bombed and armed soldiers patrolled the streets.

Whilst I think it is a false comparison, I disagree with your assertion of no violence given the number of gun deaths in the US and especially shooting in schools.

how do you know what it’s like for her? Why would she be posting if she wasn’t deeply worried?

I think if it’s that bad I would consider moving- either back to the UK or to a more enlightened area. The UK is fine, while there are small pockets of Farage followers. there are also large swathes of anti racist people who are not afraid to make the right decisions

Honestly I don’t get this. Surely if people have opposing views to you, you either agree to disagree and don’t talk about it or you debate it. I love discussing politics and current affairs with other people and I like hearing other people’s opinions and consider I can learn a lot from them and my own views have been influenced as a result. Even people who have racist or ultra right/left opinions. You can ask: “ why do you feel that way?”. “Have you considered that …?”. It’s called conversation. You won’t change people’s opinions by insulting them or shutting them down.

Why do you feel the need to live in an echo chamber?

Are you in any immediate danger? Because this seems like a slightly ridiculous mindset.

My family are actually under threat from Hamas rockets and crazed genocidal Jew-hating terrorists, and have been living like this for almost two years. My friend’s two children were burned to death on October 7 on their kibbutz. I’m not sure your situation bears any tangible similarities.