Do you know how people managed their daily relationships in NI during the Troubles?

[jonthebatiste]

I hope I'm not asking too difficult a question. I'm finding myself struggling with a new situation in my life, and looking for experience and wisdom from those who have personal knowledge.

Without wanting to draw a false equivalence, where we live (in the US) we are surrounded by people who hold diametrically opposite views to us on Trump and Israel/Palestine. I'm British and had a coddled life as a child in 1980s/90s London, in these respects. My childhood and youth was the heyday of the 20th century: stable, prosperous, conflict free in my own life. I've never had to experience day to day life where conflict is the norm.

I'm trying to work out how to handle this in the way that's best and true for me, and what to model for my children. I can't go about denying entry to every other person we know or come across simply because of their politics (or can I?); nor do I want to condone or seem to accept views which are abhorrent to me and DH. So I'm thinking back to the 70s and 80s and wondering what people did during the Troubles. Did children form friendships across partisan divides? Did parents have friendly neighborly relationships with people who stood for opposite ideals? How did parents guide their children through the issues - not care about seeming to be fair? Automatically inducting them into their own beliefs? The only knowledge I have is from novels and movies (and Derry Girls) - I'm sure they're not realistic. They can't possibly be.

I know this isn't a one-size-fits-all situation, and I know considerations aren't the same. There's also no violence on my doorstep - the biggest difference.

I'd be so grateful for any thoughts. I apologize in advance if this is raking up best-forgotten memories. And I'd be grateful for this not to descend into party/national politics: I'm sure there will be people on both sides struggling with the same thing.

I think the better thing would be to look at would be the resolution of the Troubles (although its certainly not perfect now and there is trauma that will take generations to wash out). That was about finding a way to live with people whose views you might not hold: lots of trying to encourage people to find common ground.

The actual Troubles - people kept themselves to themselves, trusted very few people, didn’t go out after work - got home and stayed locked in and safe (as you could be). The terror was pretty all pervading.

I'm surprised that you seem to expect to share views with your acquaintances so much.
Even as a family we share different views on things like abortion or same sex marriage, and can have heated debates, listening to each other, arguing our points, and continue on with our lives afterwards.

I think gently making a point to someone spewing hatred is far more important than cutting them off from people who think differently from them. What hope is there of changing mindsets if we all just form our own little group of like minded individuals.

I grew up as a child and teenager through 70s & 80s. I don’t disagree with this. Education was highly segregated, hence friendships were too. We had a wire grill on our bathroom window because of it being repeatedly broken by missiles. I met people from the opposite religion as an older teenager and left NI in my mid 20s. I love it but I’m glad I didn’t raise my family there. I look at what’s happening in America and it makes me sad because it looks so divided. It’s a hard one to navigate. I just hope things change when politics moves on.

"the absolute denial of the other’s right to their position before the peace treaty, is not dissimilar. "
The GFA didn't fall from the sky. There have always been people who could see the other side's point of view even if they didn't agree with it. There have always been mixed marriages- much easier now with less eyebrow raising in most but not all places.

"NI is the only comparator I have. I’m reading it’s through segregation and a right to allow the other to live with their beliefs in peace."
If you want to self segregate and live an almost completely separate, parallel life, you can. If you want to integrate, you can.
"Does this mean nobody talks about their differences now?" If it's somebody you don't know well, best politely skirt the contentious issues. If you're good mates you can chat about it. We tend to rip the piss quite a bit with good friends but that mightn't go down well in America.
Do the parties mix at all?
Yes
Does it feel peaceful, day by day?
For me and probably most others, yes
Do children play together now
Depends on your family's attitude but yes
, go to the same schools?
See above. My children go to an integrated primary school that is 35 years old. Lagan College - the first integrated school- is older than that. It's not a new idea.
Even the schools that aren't integrated do some sort of shared education initiatives. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s there was a thing called PRISM (Peace and Reconciliation Inter Schools Movement) and various outdoor education Outward Bound-y type things that were deliberately very mixed.

I'm not well educated on the Troubles (although have been making efforts to learn) but I understand from speaking with those who had first and secondhand experience, the risk of violence for straying into the wrong area was very real. And recent experiences of friends visiting Ireland would suggest there are some places where the British are still very unwelcome.

I do think its naive at best to attempt to draw the comparison you have, op, even if I understand what you're attempting.

It's very bad in the US right now- keep your head down and stay safe.

I think the most important part in any conflict resolution is an understanding of the trauma inflicted while whatever dispute is occurring (be that big trauma or small 'trauma' depending on the scenario). Trauma healing can really only happen when the danger is past and you can be safe enough to move out of a fight or flight headspace. So at the time of the troubles and active war in NI people were in survival mode and most kept to their own because that was where they felt safe. It was only really after a ceasefire was agreed that people started to feel like it was safe enough to talk openly about what happened. I work in a community role and a lot of my colleagues would have had a different background/experience of the troubles and aftermath than I did and we talk openly about it but respectfully which is key. I might not agree with all their political views, but I respect them as people and I can see their political views are not ALL they are as people so we can find common ground and I respect their right to disagree with me because ultimately that's how democracy works which is a view I uphold. I think it's also about remembering that we're each a sum of our own experience and the information we have available to us - if you grew up in a different family, with different experiences and different information fed to you you'd perhaps think the opposite of what you think now.

I think the problem comes when people value being acknowledged as being right, more than they value the debate and being respectful of the trauma that goes with it. When it comes to contentious issues, they're usually emotive because a significant amount of pain has occurred on both sides.

I can understand the fear of ICE and policing in the US and its not something I'd want to have to live with, but you can't let fear override faith in humanity. You suggest segregation as a possible positive - it's absolutely not a positive and I'd say it's one factor that slows down the societal healing in NI because it becomes much too easy and comfortable to stay in your area with what you know because that feels safe. And that allows ample opportunity for fear of anyone 'other' to run wild because there's nothing to counteract that.

I think the experience differed across class lines too. Whilst the more working class lived a more segregated life, wealthier people lived in areas much more unaffected, and 'mixing' wasn't such an issue. My mum and her 2 siblings all went to grammar schools, where people were bussed in from all over Belfast (and beyond). My aunt married a catholic man with absolutely no issues. This most certainly would not have been the case had either family lived in a very wc segregated area.

How do you think things start? DC has had the National Guard on the streets and Trump is trying to get them in more places. Children are getting killed in schools. People are reporting friends and neighbours to the ICE.

What is happening in America is very equivalent to how many civil wars start. Just because these things aren't happening doesn't mean that they won't. America isn't special or different to the rest of the world. Look how fast Yugoslavia went to the Bosnian War.

I think yours is the most interesting post and thought provoking I have ever read on Mumsnet OP so thank you.

It sounds extremely difficult. Do you plan to stay in the US longterm?
Although there isn’t direct violence yet it worries me that it is coming.
In your place I would be leaving as soon as I could.

To make another comparison, which is much less difficult than the one you face, gender ideology, immigration, israel / palestine and climate change are issues here which have caused me similar worries and difficulties in social relationships.

If I challenged everyone I disagree with by saying exactly what I think every time they raise these topics I would be exhausted and would probably be dropped by most people I know.

I don’t raise the topics myself unless I am certain of a reasonable reception.

However I never condone views which I find abhorrent and I challenge politely where I feel I am able to do so.
How I challenge depends on the situation and the person I am speaking to.
There are some people who aren’t willing or able to debate, some who are.
I have to feel my way.

I really dislike the current climate because the world has become so polarised that I can’t always be 100% open and direct.
We have lost the ability to agree to disagree.

I think you need to think about the situations that are appropriate to discuss politics. I wouldn’t discuss politics with school mums I don’t know well but would with close friends or some work colleagues.

If people just assume you have the same views as them in general conversation, but you’re not close enough to oppose them you can change the subject.

You need to remember that people with different views to you aren’t bad people. You don’t need everyone to know you disagree with them or convince them.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I've a full day ahead of me and won't be able to do justice to the replies, which have given me food for thought. I've had a negative knee-jerk reaction to some of the opinions expressed, but I don't know if that's fair. Perhaps I'm in the wrong, too comfortable. I'd like to think about the points everyone has made and return to this thread. I do so appreciate everyone's input.