Will the European leaders stand up to Putin

[Viviennemary]

Surely Trump and Putin can't just carve up Ukraine in a done deal between the two of them. Or does Trump has a surprise up his sleeve. Sounds like the end of Nato more or less. Anyone else worried. I am.

Putin regards Ukraine as Russian. It isn't. Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

If Putin thinks he has that claim, then he should prove it. He has threatened to retaliate if any foreign nation puts military boots on Ukrainian soil, because he claims they would be invading Russia. Wouldn't he have to PROVE it was Russia before attacking another country?

If an EU country or UK was to send troops into Ukraine for protection, under what law would Putin be able to attack that country? He would first have to prove they were attacking Russia. How would he do that?

He might want Ukraine for a new USSR, but that is in his twisted mind. If he invaded a NATO country because they went to the aid of Ukraine, surely other NATO members would be in their rights to fight back, because no one would have invaded Russia UNLESS stupid Trump gave Putin the Donbas and Crimea. That is serious.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

and Ukraine.ua

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"Ukraine is ready for real decisions that can bring peace. Any decisions that are against us, any decisions that are without Ukraine, are at the same time decisions against peace. They will not achieve anything. These are stillborn decisions. They are unworkable decisions. And we all need real and genuine peace. Peace that people will respect.
President Trump announced preparations for his meeting with Putin in Alaska. Very far away from this war, which is raging on our land, against our people, and which anyway can't be ended without us, without Ukraine.
Putin did not believe in our people and therefore made the hopeless decision to try to take Ukraine. This was his main mistake—not taking Ukrainians into account.
I believe in our people. Ukrainians are strong. Ukrainians defend what's theirs. Many in the world have sided with Ukraine during the war. Even those who are with Russia know that Russia is doing evil.
Of course, we will not reward Russia for what it has perpetrated. The Ukrainian people deserve peace. But all partners must understand what a dignified peace is.
This war must be brought to an end—and Russia must end it. Russia started it and is dragging it out, ignoring all deadlines, and that is the problem, not something else.
The answer to the Ukrainian territorial question already is in the Constitution of Ukraine. No one will deviate from this—and no one will be able to. Ukrainians will not gift their land to the occupier.
We are ready to work together with President Trump, together with all our partners for real and, most importantly, lasting peace. A peace that will not collapse because of Moscow's desires.
I thank all our people for being together. Ukraine is. I thank all our soldiers for preserving our independence. Stand firm, this is our land, we are Ukraine. Glory to Ukraine!", President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

If Trump hands over part of Ukraine to Russia (how can he even do that he can't) so he has to twist Zelensky's arm by threats to make him sign away parts of his territory to Russia. And if he does this it makes a much much weaker Europe open to Russian invasion. And the European leaders know this.

Is there another thread on this topic. Since it's the main news this last day or two. The outcome could be really important for the future of Europe.

The only thing keeping Ukraine in the war right now is American $$$$, and the American people are beyond sick and tired of paying for other peoples' wars.

What can Europe do? Dismantle its social welfare system to pay for soldiers and weapons. Since that isn't going to happen, the answer is nothing. You lack the will to do anything meaningful.

As I write this, the Euro "leaders" are sitting outside the Oval Office cooling their heels while the real players meet inside. That photo is making the rounds here in the US and we are all laughing about it.

Will European leaders stand up to Putin? No.

The ‘Coalition of the Willing’ is a bad joke.

European countries are banking on the US fighting their corner for them under the NATO banner if Putin goes full-on mental and expands his war westwards.

It’s a pathetic state of affairs.

American dollars stopped funding Ukraine a while ago you know. The US is currently just profiting from selling arms to Europe to give to Ukraine

Once again, on Monday, Trump exaggerated the amount of artillery The Biden administration sent to Ukraine, by about $200billion.

Also, in the meeting he boasted that he had settled six wars in peace without once using the ''ceasefire word''. A few hours ago, the BBC verified section researched that, and in fact he used that word many times in each one...

How can a man who boasts and fluffs himself up, be in charge of so much seriousness in the world?

His lapses of memory get worse. He should really stop congratulating himself over and over and let someone else speak. He just keeps getting it wrong.

I am sorry. I cannot agree with you. Your comment is very discouraging, but I honour the right for you to make it.

What you disagree with?

He cannot, nor can President Zelenskyy. The country's borders are tied up in the Constitution.

I watched the proceedings in Alaska, and watched them all day Monday. (UK.it is still Monday in US).

One thing that has struck me is the undoubted friendship between Trump and Putin. That visit in Alaska was too easy, too ''Off pat'' if you will.

I believe they must have been thick as thieves during the Biden era, because it was so obvious. I watched them both on that stage set up. Putin mentioned the Orthodox churches in Alaska, and the tombs and cemetery where Russian military of the last war were laid to rest, saying they had the same in Russia, with US memorials.

I immediately remembered how Putin interferes in other East European countries since the flop of the USSR. He invades on the pretext of ensuring that the Russian emigres in those countries were being treated properly. I think it was last year, or maybe 2023 when Putin announced conscription, and thousands of Russians of military age fled over the Georgia border. It is how Putin works. In a few years, those Russian ''refugees'' will send word that they are being badly treated, and Putin will have an excuse to go into Georgia.

He did a peaceful takeover of Belarus this year. Whether the Belarusians realise it is another matter. They were probably thrilled that they didn't need passports or permits to go to Russia. There is political unrest there, now.

I wonder if Putin has something on Trump that makes Trump keep on his good side? Putin has obviously been observing Alaska very well. It is little more than a century since Russia sold Alaska to America. As far as anyone can tell, Russian refugees and immigrants have not yet been given the push as have the Mexicans, etc.

How many are there? Will Putin invade Alaska to make sure they are being treated well?

Trump thinks it ok for Ukraine to give up the Donbas and Crimea, and that strip of coastline and shipping ports on the south UKraine coast.

Would he be so ready to give up Alaska to his friend Putin? Has Putin threatened to? Trump said the war would not have happened if he had been president, but has never said how he would have prevented it.

Do you have to own the land with rare minerals to mine it? I think in Britain you cannot own the mineral rights to land you own. Is it the same in Europe? Could Trump buy or lease the mining rights to the valuable Donbas as easily from Putin as from Ukraine, more easily, perhaps, if he has some deal with Putin for them. Remember he secured a deal with Putin since he was elected for safe shipping in the Black Sea. We don't know what for, do we? Perhaps I missed it.

I am uneasy about the friendship between Putin and Trump. I don't think it bodes well for the world. I think in the past four years they have made personal and private agreements. If Trump had lost the election, would he be mining ore in Ukraine and developing golf courses and hotels in Crimea, as he wanted to do in Gaza?

Europe has made a deal to buy weapons from America through NATO. Once NATO has purchased them, they are theirs, and if they give/sell them to Ukraine, Trump cannot take them back. Of course, he may have put restrictions on we don't know about.

All of it. I believe that the UK and Europe can stand up to Putin. I raised the question with the PM soon after he was elected because I was concerned that the UK and Europe would not be able to stand against Russia, just as you have said.

I received two very informative letters from two of our ministry departments, and was assured that those two ministries are on the ball as far as that is concerned, however capable Starmer might or might not be. No PM can be a jack of all trades, and I must say his performance in other areas has depressed, alarmed and horrified me. We have to put trust in our Ministry of Defence officials. The elected member is only as good as the information they are given, and unlike other Government Departments, their bosses have to be knowledgeable.

I think the same about the other organisations who attended Monday's meetings. The very fact that they stood together, attended together, crossed the pond together, proves it. They would not have done that if they didn't think they could stand up to Russia.

They don't want to. Nobody wants to, but the whole of Europe is at risk now, and the whole of Europe has to stand up to Putin.

Putin doesn't recognise President Zelenskyy, because he doesn't recognise the existence of Ukraine. He and Lavrov have said that many times over. What Lavrov said earlier this year was frightening. He mentioned world war three as almost 'inevitable'. I believe he was serious. It might have been before, (perhaps 2024) Trump used the same words in that terrible White House insult to President Zelenskyy in February. That is another thing which ties Putin to Trump.

Putin said that Ukraine is Russian. There is no such country as Ukraine, that it is Russian soil. He said for that reason, if any other country puts military boots on the ground, it will be regarded as an attack on Russia, and he will retaliate.

Well he would first have to prove that Ukraine was not a sovereign country. He would have to prove that Ukraine was part of Russia, and he cannot do that legitimately, so he cannot justify invading a European country going to the aid of Ukraine, even if they are not part of the EU or NATO.

If he cannot prove that Ukraine is Russian, then there is no justification for invading a member of NATO. If he did, the other NATO members are duty bound to go to that country's aid. That would be a third world war. The point is, should they call Putin's bluff?

I say yes, even though it could be a bloody war, because if we do not, Putin will continue to eat at Ukraine like a lump of cheese. He can invade from the north, now that he has done a deal with Belarus. Do the Belarusians know that they can be called up to the Russian military?

He doesn't want Ukraine. He wants the wealth of Ukraine and will lay the country to waste, a nomans land, never to rise again, and will do the same to others. Hitler did that, and carried off the citizens to labour camps to work as slaves for the German economy. Putin has hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and others somewhere in Russia. It is probably why the sanctions are not working.

Have more faith in the west. Putin will never win.

Surely, if the Ukraine is losing, it is better for the Ukrainians to reach a deal, or do people think they should keep on fighting until the last Ukrainian is dead?

Surely, if the Ukraine is losing, it is better for the Ukrainians to reach a deal, or do people think they should keep on fighting until the last Ukrainian is dead?

I can’t understand why Putin is still walking the earth to be honest. Why was such a dangerous man not neutralised the moment he arrived in Alaska? For the good of humanity? I’m serious.

Speak for yourself! No one i know is laughing at this insanity! In fact, trump’s approval ratings are circling the drain. To watch this inept criminal fool and his enablers push the USA into fascism, and embrace the likes of that evil POS putin is revolting. And dismantle the welfare system, to what end? So Europeans can become underpaid, no rights, no safety net, medical-debt ridden wage slaves like Americans?

Both Putin and Netanyahu have got Trump in their pockets - and he doesn’t even realise it. He thinks they’re equals (at worst). They’re playing him, and it’s not even difficult for them.

There are two excellent, long-running threads; one on Trump and one focussing on Ukraine, both in Chat. The Trump thread is no 147! Both have very knowledgeable contributors who back up their input with information.

@LifeExperience that photo is an ai fake.

Lizzie the EU leaders have hot footed it to USA to doff their caps to trump which is exactly what they did ! Each and every one thanked trump for getting Putin's door open.
Of course they also went to shore up zelensky but as
Macron said, supporting Ukraine is also supporting the security of Europe.

Trump thanked them for committing to 5% NATO spending.

Trump said any security for Ukraine would be in conjunction with the USA.

Putin in his mind doesn't need to prove anything re USSR because Ukraine was a satellite of it
Pick which part of history Ukraine was Russian and that's his proof. ..

Putin doesn't have to prove anything to anyone he's got nuclear weapons. If he didn't he would be dead by now.
He's got the means to keep pursuing the war and the motive...it keeps him in power and in spite of reports that's he's unwell I thought he looked depressingly sprite at the meeting.

What Im wondering is what plan b is.

That’s comprehensive. And I can agree with much of it.

But it’s just wrong to say that Europe could stand up to Putin in Ukraine in the absence of the US. Starmer and Macron’s laughable Coalition of the Willing cannot muster more than 20,000 troops across the whole of Europe for Ukraine. And they’re all theoretical. Some Western European countries refused to commit any troops.

Of course Europe would fight if attacked. I’m sure the Poles and the Finns would scrap fiercely: if Russia’s your neighbour you’re likely to be on your guard. And the UK and France are nuclear weapon states. But Europe won’t defend Ukraine. Only the US could do that, at arm’s length.

Once Boris Johnson resigned Ukraine lost the only European leader with any genuine commitment to it.

@DenizenOfAisleOfShame 20 thousands ? Really including Germany and Poland ??Spain the whole lot ?

Would you do a deal if someone came along and invaded your garden, perhaps a neighbour moving the fence? Would you just say OK it's yours?

What would the people of Northern Ireland do if Eire decided to invade it and claim it as theirs. Wouldn't the people expect Westminster to protect them, give them their land, schools, buildings, roads, railways, and so on?

Ukraine has defined borders. It is a sovereign, democratic country. Putin invaded it. No country in the world would stand for that. Why would the Ukrainian people? Would you?

If Putin was allowed to keep the land he took, shouldn't the UN intervene? Look at the wars in Africa over territory, the Balkan wars. Consider Yugoslavia before it was carved up after the fall of the USSR.

Putin and Lavrov both say that Ukraine is Russian, part of Russia, and he is entitled to add it to his empire building for another USSR - their words, not mine. They say if other countries go to the aid of Ukraine, Putin will regard it as an attack on Russia and he will attack that country. It is bluff, but it makes others afraid of a third world war - Lavrov's words again.

He cannot do that. He will try, but he cannot, because he cannot prove that Ukraine is not Ukraine. He cannot argue that it is not Russia against Ukraine, but a civil war in Russia.

Imagine the world if Putin kept what he took by force. It would be repeated over and over, in other places, and Putin will try it again on other countries bordering Russia.

It might be more difficult to persuade Britons of that, because they have not had to fight for freedom as their ancestors did in two wars, but Eastern Europe is very different. Until the early 1990s, they were not free at all. They were under the control of the USSR - control being the operative word. They will never let that happen again.

I think Europe has access to more military might than we think. We do know that Putin does not, at least not in Russia. I don't think Europe would run if the going gets tough. There is too much at stake, and East Europe has suffered too much under the USSR to let that happen again. They know what loss of freedom is. They will be like Ukrainians, and fight for freedom trained or not. That is what Putin doesn't understand. He wants the sort of power Stalin had, but that was before the people tasted independence, fought for it only 30 years ago or so.

He promised building plots to some middle east nations in exchange for fighting in the Donbas and East Ukraine. Thousands of Kim Ung's militia have died in this war, fighting for Russia, and more have been sent, and more on the way. Some have escaped to the west. They are unpaid slaves, barely on enough food. Putin's heros are Stalin and Hitler. He has been modelling himself and Russia on them. He has said as much. It is no secret. There are Russian settlers in countries bordering Russia - including Alaska, which is why Putin discussed Alaska with Trump last Friday.

Trump has been getting on very well with Putin during the Biden administration. The first thing he did when elected was to tell Ukraine they had to pay for the BIden arms and any they want in the future, and he will take rare minerals as payment. The most valuable are on land Putin invaded, and which Trumps is trying to persuade Ukraine to give up. Do you need to own the land to have the mineral rights? Putin has the best. How much discussion went on in the Biden era, that the first thing Trump does is demand payment in mineral rights?

Now he is trying to force President Zelenskyy to give the land up to Putin. Today he said sanctions would not work, when last month he was threatening more sanctions. What happened between T and P in between?

When he promised American security, was it security for all Ukrainians, or just those mining American mines? When he did a deal for safety of American shipping in the Black Sea, had he already done a deal before he won the presidency, to mine the ore in Putin's Donbas invasion?

Trump is teetering on the brink of political suicide. He doubled India's tariffs because India bought oil from Russia. Today, India has turned to China for trade purposes: and what else?

Trump is right to want America to be self sufficient, in case there is conflict and countries hold America to ransom by withholding vital supplies.(don't put your eggs in one basket sort of thing). He has done that by increasing tariffs. Should he have waiting until there were improvements in American industry? You would think so. At the moment, if India joins China, chances are the rest of Asia will follow, and that will not bode well for America, which could end up like a pariah, like Russia. Perhaps he likes the way Putin runs Russia?

DenizenOfAisleOfShame ""Of course Europe would fight if attacked. I’m sure the Poles and the Finns would scrap fiercely: if Russia’s your neighbour you’re likely to be on your guard. And the UK and France are nuclear weapon states. But Europe won’t defend Ukraine. Only the US could do that, at arm’s length.
Once Boris Johnson resigned Ukraine lost the only European leader with any genuine commitment to it.''

I would agree about Boris, but he was/is not the only European leader with any genuine commitment to it. He might, perhaps, have been more likely to settle Putin once for all and go in and protect Ukraine, but the other leaders in Europe are quite different.

So many more countries joined the EU and NATO after the fall of the USSR. They will never, ever live like that again.

The farcical Coalition of the Willing for Ukraine was never intended to do more than offer peacekeepers in circumstances in which a truce was agreed with America’s blessing. No European countries have committed to fighting Russian forces in Ukraine.

As there won’t be a truce - because Putin doesn’t want one - and Europe will not spend money on arming Ukraine to anything like the extent that the US could do, I’m afraid Ukraine is being hung out to dry.

Even if there were a lasting ceasefire I do not believe that European countries would do more than provide symbolic support. What Macron and Starmer are talking up is really a disgraceful fraud.