Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

[Kittybythelighthouse]

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

Yes I realise that I was just wondering if the fact that most people can’t just pick one out and go straight there that they get a bit more ego, feel more important.

I don’t even have any experience of US doctors really, only once when my daughter was very young and very ill and I was desperate. I rang the office of a highly regarded neurosurgeon in NY (long story) and he came straight on the phone to me and we had a long conversation and he helped me. Very accessible.

Maybe - that is an interesting idea. People have choices of which doctor to see too - not just this pediatrician, but from this lists of pediatricians. Whereas in the NHS its more 'get what you are given'. And people have traditionally been more loathe to complain, so bad behaviour is less likely to be challenged. If your doctor is an asshole to you in the States, you simply find another one on the panel for your insurance. Over here - well, my experiences of people asking for second opinion is that it is experienced as incredibly offensive to the doctors (even though it should not be) and mostly just backs up what the first doctor said.

I also found there was more common basis for training in the US. So when I did my required CPD, I would be on courses with a variety of professionals, including doctors. I think that makes a massive difference to the 'us and them' mentality.

I’ll chime in and say that was my experience in the USA too - I spent 6 years there, had my first child there. My experience of consultants in the USA (American equivalent of of consultants) is vastly different to UK consultants.

UK belueve they are gods

USA - approachable and willing to listen - no where near as dismissive.

I spent 10 years working in health care in the US and 16 now in the UK. Its night and day. And I think the attitudes of the doctors in LLs case are par for the course.

Had not realized until I listened to a podcast today that the doctors were only doing ward rounds twice a week, instead of twice a day which is more like what you would expect.

The ward rounds were upped to twice a day plus down grading to a level one unit around the same time LL was put onto administrative duty.

But of course all the issues stopped when she was removed from clinical duties, that’s all we need to know. It’s evidence I tell you!

So improved safety must not be because they were taking more appropriate patients and actually seeing the babies more often? It must all be because LL was not there? It is beyond belief.

Yes. Repeatedly claimed by the same few posters. It is truly bizarre.

It seems some believe that yes.

The downgrading of the unit and the increasing of the ward rounds isn’t a fiction - theres evidence online including from the hospitals Si licit or that these steps were taken at the sand time LL was removed.

Are doctors\consultant arrogant - yes

As I say I was just admin when I worked for the NHS, but my job roll"s bought me into touch , closely with senior doctors

We had one senior surgical consultant, and he was good, he would take cases no one else would and give that patient a chance. Because he was held in high regard it was difficult to challenge him - especially if female below his grade , which at the time most wore I remember him walking the main corridor - fag in hand and matron ( back in the day we still had matrons ) said excuse me, we are now a no smoking hospital " and he ripped into her - if you can do what I do, then come tell me I cant smoke ." And he still smoked openly in clinic because our hospital needed him. Most sexist racist male you could ever imagine, but he bought in the money

Back in my day - 80's to 2000 - junior doctors were taught by the nursing staff. Straight out of school, they could barely take a blood sample, they didn't have the experience of dealing with patients

They then became HO's and SHO's , learning how to be a doctor and learning where their leanings were going toward - which speciality - but they were being taught by the nursing staff and ancillary staff

Id say around 80% of those that work for the NHS are female , yet they have no say

Sorry, I know none of this is really relevant as to where wer'e are on the discussion , but I just felt I needed to say, from my point of view, it really doesn't surprise me that ranks have been closed ( long before the evidence was slaughtered )

They really do need to bring that back 😅

Update from Panorama

But true

Thanks for posting, interesting info.

Also important to note that this was a mistake on an email, noticed, and corrected in the same day vs C&M using “stats” that were already done with crayon on a wall to begin with and putting them in a prime time tv show without once having them checked! It’s astonishing.

They went through months of development without the thought seemingly ever occurring to them that they maybe should run these numbers past a statistician? They had a graphic made and recorded a voiceover without once thinking ‘hmm. I should check that these are right” wtf?! And then they called this nonsense “empirical. Oh my days.

The BBC have had their knuckles rapped by OFCOM before for unthinkingly presenting dodgy stats. It’s a known issue. They actually have guidelines for if/when journos want to present stats, but C&M clearly didn’t follow the guidelines. It’s just egregious and really, really, embarrassing.

Just dropping this link again for anyone so moved:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints

I’m astonished. Now it’s the fallacy of small numbers? Ffs.

And we still have “I spoke to someone who understands this data”

Who? The Count from Sesame Street?

Actually The Count would probably “understand” this data.

My apologies to The Count.

“We understand that the hospital's review found that in 2015 there were 11 ventilated shifts during which Lucy Letby was involved in the care of a baby,”

1 baby over 11 shifts, 1 baby per shift so 11 different babies, or the same baby for several shifts so 2 or 3 different babies over 11 shifts, or multiple babies per shift for 11 shifts?

It would be one-to-one care, supervised, over eleven shifts. We know she worked 11 ICU shifts in 2015 from Thirlwall.

That means they have made this ridiculous fuss over 4 extubations. I don't know if I'm more impressed by the stupidity or the gross irresponsibility.

So it could be: 1 baby, several babies, or 11 different babies.

You can do that here if you’re privately insured. Of course most aren’t, but then in the US you pretty much have to have insurance.

This has been shameful nonsense from the BBC. We called it out on day one. Neither the edit nor the apology are comprehensive enough. Appalling.

I assumed the care was 1 to 1 but I’m still not clear whether she could do say 1 baby for half a shift and another for the other half?

I can’t believe they got called out for this, changed it, employed the fallacy of small numbers, and still insisted that it’s “empirical data” and there’s no way this wasn’t malevolence.

Could easily happen with a trainee.

Also, it is still not clear whether those eejits mean:

Letby was nursing intubated babies during 11 shifts and during 4 of those shifts, one of those babies extubated

or

Letby was nursing intubated babies during 11 shifts and during 4 of those shifts, one of the intubated babies on the ward extubated

It is well known anyway that a child who accidentally extubates is prone to keep doing it - so this whole fuss is an absolute farce. Just appalling standards from the BBC, and they've left the whole melodramatic nonsense discussion afterwards uncorrected.

It’s not even the fallacy of small numbers it’s the fallacy of still undefined numbers.