Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

[Kittybythelighthouse]

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation.

Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case,

Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner.

Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left):
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313

It’s interesting that Evans has nothing but circular arguments, scorn for statisticians, (O’Quigley it seems in particular - whom he opined likely hadn't ever spent even 30 minutes in a neonatal unit, which didn't age well but is a completely moot point ), and barely hidden scorn for any other professional who disagrees with him, and yet throws around the word ‘hubris’ with an astonishing sense of self-righteousness.

‘Then how was it not noticed at the time when she was a supervised trainee’

Quite.

Either the maths is wrong or we REALLY need to worry about what the NICU nursing programme at LWH is churning out.

It’s also not clear whether the 1% comes from the NHS target, or from actual nurses who worked alongside Letby. Given the complete lack of transparency in the data, I’m inclined to think it’s the latter until evidence otherwise is shown.

I’d also like to know who was doing the actual intubations, because nurses, let alone student nurses (which LL was at the time) would not have been. At COCH the Drs were not good at intubations, frequently using the wrong size tube etc. A baby died at COCH solely because one of the Drs (incidentally one who testified against Letby) intubated the oesophageal tract (food pipe), not the trachea, and missed repeated alarms while the baby slowly suffocated to death. This was the year before the death spike.

Why are we always only looking at nurses?

Because that capacity - to approach one's own thinking critically, is indispensable to a serious thinker. This is why Evans will always be at pub team level, and is one of the reasons Professor Jane Hutton is an acknowledged expert in her field.

I’d also like to know when M&C say LL worked ‘50 shifts’ whether that was 50 nursing shifts or ‘50 ventilated shifts’ Has that been clarified?

She worked about fifty shifts altogether: a ten week placement in 2012 and another 15 shifts in 2015. So, given that she did not have sole care for any child as a trainee, it's hard to see how she would have worked 50 ventilated shifts: there would always be more intubated children in the ward.

This is exactly what I thought. I'm crap at maths, and even I knew those stats were wrong, simply for the fact that it wasn't noted and corrected at the time.

I've never trained anyone in something as important as keeping actual human babies alive, but I have trained and supervised people. If one of my team members were making major mistakes 40 times more often than their colleagues, I'd notice. I would make note of it, offer them extra training, and ensure they were shadowed by someone more experienced when carrying out essential tasks, and flag it with senior management.

What I wouldn't do is say nothing until several babies were dead and someone took the time to ask me. Even without the poor maths, it makes no sense.

Ah, but he is, of course, the “expertiest expert” what with all of those “successful” trials under his belt.

If he’s been working in the family courts or smaller cases and therefore isn’t accustomed to the wider public commenting on his professional integrity and expertise (or lack thereof) it must be a fairly jarring switch for him, especially when people with academic accolades and recognition that he simply can’t match come out swinging.

Defensiveness is understandable from a human perspective, especially when they’re threatening his credibility which could impact his livelihood (can’t have his children missing out on horses and cars, can we?), just very much not desirable, to the point of being extremely problematic in one fulfilling his role. Unfortunately, without the arrogance to say “of course every theory out there except for mine makes zero sense at all because of…reasons, and I am the most knowledgable because of…other reasons that go to a different school so you don’t know them” he wouldn’t be as useful to the prosecution on a regular basis and he knows it. Medical and scientific integrity is secondary to the £££ and the profile.

One of the interesting things about MN on this topic is that it is a predominantly female space and that inevitably means that there are a fair number of nurses on here. One thing that struck me, reading along on the threads during the trial, was how many nurses were commenting that things LL was accused of - eg taking handover notes home - was something that they all did from time to time. Others were used to nursing in NICU and commented that sometimes you briefly observe a baby before intervention to see if they can right themselves. Something Jayram seemed not to know. I can't help thinking it might have been a different trial if we didn't rely on doctors for all our expert witness evidence but included some nurses as well. It was quite striking that Shoo Lee's panel included one. There again, COCH was so keen to obstruct the defence the nurses were warned it would be career threatening to offer to support LL. It was only when Thirlwall was able to compel attendance that we heard that the nurses had a totally different view to the consultants (with one exception).

@Londonmummy66 I agree, a nurse's perspective is so valuable. Again it comes back to the arrogance of those on the prosecution side that they didn't seek this out. Did you see this interview with Michele Worden?

It's long, but she really knows her stuff and worked at CoCH before being made redundant in a cost-cutting exercise. She also talks about the lack of really experienced nurses being a problem at CoCH - even Letby was early in her career and was one of the most qualified on the unit.

He gave a fabulous example in his interview with John Sweeny.

As they closed the session and thanked him for his time he shot off an almost self pitying comment

I paraphrase ‘I doubt I’ll be in your podcast, it’ll all be about O’Quigley’

@Insanityisnotastrategy - yes I did see that. I had my doubts during the trial as a result of the MN threads. I have to say that the arrogance of doctors really reeks in both this case and the Sandie Peggie tribunal. Although dear Dewi takes it to a whole new level.

In contrast to the original error which was first aired at the Thirlwall by a lawyer, concerned experts wrote requesting clarification (and evidence) which never came; it was printed, uncorrected across the media; and then repeated on Panorama.

Plus Thirlwall repeatedly uploaded confidential information that was not redacted initially.

I sometimes really miss the laughter emoji on here.

Oh, poor bairn! My heart just bleeds for him

If you’ve not listened to it it’s worth a bit of your time. In the same podcast they post the full interview with him (not the edited version in the episode entitled ‘Star Witness’ )

I can’t remember who recommended the podcast to me now in her, but thanks whoever it was.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/was-there-ever-a-crime-the-trials-of-lucy/id1616634411?i=1000681179524

I have worked in a branch of health for over 25 years which brings me into contact with many many types of doctors. I have also worked in the US and UK. Without a doubt, the doctors I have seen in the UK are the most arrogant, self regarding bunch of people I have ever met. Not all, of course, I have worked with lovely GPs, and specialist practitioners. But as a whole - its been eye opening. All while practice standards are - variable. Doctors are gods in the NHS, and the profession overwhelmingly seems to have believed that.

Are they really more arrogant than US doctors?

I wonder if there’s something in the fact that in the US if your kid is sick you go straight to a paediatrician, when you’re pregnant you go straight to an obstetrician etc. whereas here in the UK you need a referral to a ‘specialist’ on the NHS. Just pondering

Yes!!!! I know that seems unbelievable, but its true! Certainly many many of the doctors I worked with in the US had massive egos. But there was a level of respect for other professionals which I have found almost entirely lacking here. Its deeply distressing, actually.

I think (having various relatives as doctors) that it's an assumption that they know what's right and it will be done with as little inconvenience to themselves as possible - and that everyone wants to do it.

I've seen it in the top end of the army (Brigadier level or above), where they say "This needs to be done" with the total confidence that having said it, it will be done and they need to do nothing more to make it happen.

I remember one of my Dr relatives telling me that they'd moved house and the phone/internet provider had said it would take 5-10 days before they did it, and they came on day 5, which was obviously because they'd seen they had the title as Dr and knew that it was urgent that they did theirs first.
They were more than a little put out when I said I'd had the same but they came on day 4.🤣

So it's an assumption that they'd get special treatment even outside the medical world.

That doesn't work within a healthcare system that is basically free for all at point of entry. NHS is a system that is in tandem with private care to a point - the consultant you will see either privately or within the NHS could be working in both areas. GPs are basically private and the service they provide is funded by the NHS.

Interesting.

I think a lot is to do with the NHS which is intensely hierarchical. Not that there are not hierarchies everywhere, but I never encountered so much 'my profession is superior to yours therefore you are an idiot' as I have in the NHS. Its possible, since my NHS experience has been within 2 Trusts that I have been unlucky. Recently changed again so we will see. I am not hopeful though.