Page 20 | Lucy Letby: Have you changed your mind?

Kittybythelighthouse · 2025-08-12T11:54:43+00:00

The other thread has had a lot of really interesting discussion but we are running out of pages so here’s a new one for those who are interested in continuing the conversation. Whether you’re sure she’s guilty, sure she isn’t, or are somewhere in between, I’m interested in hearing how your opinion has evolved (or hasn’t!) since you first heard about the case, Please try to be respectful - this is a heated topic. Its a matter of huge public interest with a lot of strong opinions, but we are all adults and can disagree with each other in a respectful manner. Old thread is here (the poll still has a few days left): [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5388914-lucy-letby-have-you-changed-your-mind?page=38&reply=146359313]]

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 18:51

PinkTonic · 14/08/2025 17:48

John Sweeney dealt with this in episode 3 of his “was there ever a crime podcast” when he spoke to former Assistant Chief Constable Steve Watts. It’s a good listen.

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Thanks PT

So, if this meets the threshold for perverting course of justice, is anyone at the CPS going to be held accountable?

Why do I think it’ll be ‘no’?

Catpuss66 · 14/08/2025 19:04

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 11:59

And the original pathologists are the only people who saw the bodies, of course.

Their findings line up well with the international expert panel's, considering that they didn't have access to the full medical records. Unfortunately we know that Chester consultants didn't share all relevant details in their reports to the pathologists, as Stephanie Davies, who did the review of Letby's cases for the Cheshire Police, explained:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/14/former-senior-coroners-officer-says-lucy-letby-has-suffered-miscarriage-of-justice

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Again another woman sacked for whistle blowing.

PinkTonic · 14/08/2025 19:19

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 18:51

Thanks PT

So, if this meets the threshold for perverting course of justice, is anyone at the CPS going to be held accountable?

Why do I think it’ll be ‘no’?

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Probably same answer as will RJ face perjury charges. Big fat no.

Mirabai · 14/08/2025 19:23

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 17:02

Good.

I was just about to post about Jane Hutton. Surely, when the CPS told (allegedly) the police to drop Jane Hutton who’d been assisting in understanding the statistics, and then failed to disclose what Jane had contributed in the investigation, this action could be considered perverting course of justice?

Or am I misunderstanding the law?

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I’ve no idea but I do know the CPS should not direct or unduly influence police investigations. They can advise on lines of enquiry, evidence, charging etc but the final decisions on the investigation should be made by the police.

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 19:37

Mirabai · 14/08/2025 19:23

I’ve no idea but I do know the CPS should not direct or unduly influence police investigations. They can advise on lines of enquiry, evidence, charging etc but the final decisions on the investigation should be made by the police.

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This non disclosure was one of Mark McDonald's 11 grounds for review back in March, at least.

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 20:10

Catpuss66 · 14/08/2025 02:30

Wonder if they thought that at the time or after the doctors & police accused her of murder. You spreading bile. Somthing that is done to ease a parents heartache you have just made every nurse or midwife have to think about is it the right thing to do?
I have reported her for misinformation. Do you not understand the implications on working staff now?
do you really think you put yourself up for that job of making memory boxes, not some conveyer belt it is done if it is for your patient no one else’s, there you go misinformation.

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I can't speak for that poster but I don't think that's what she meant. Again the parents have spoken about this themselves-no one is saying every nurse who takes hand and footprints is a murderer or something. Again it's the bigger picture.

Holdingonfornow · 14/08/2025 20:23

SellingBananas · 13/08/2025 20:23

This might be straying from the current conversation a bit, so apologies, but I thought it was worth saying.

One thing that is mentioned a lot by those who think she is guilty is, if course, the so-called confession note.

I, too, remember reading a headline along the lines of ‘I DID IT: accused killer nurse’s confession’ and thinking that was it - case closed, but then I read what she actually wrote and was shocked because I too, had written something very very similar after my daughter was stillborn a number of years ago.

My notes were: I did it, I killed her, I’m a murderer, I’m worse than a murderer, I deserve to be executed, I don’t deserve to live, there is no prison sentence long enough for me. I killed her with my arrogance/stupidity’ and I could go on.

To be clear, there was no cause found for my daughter’s death but I found a million reasons to blame myself, because I am conscientious and pride myself on keeping my children safe. And I couldn’t keep her safe.

At times, I was completely convinced I’d killed her because I was disappointed to find out she was a girl / because I had trouble gaining weight and didn’t try hard enough to force food down / because I didn’t intuit there was a problem until too late (a good mother would)/ because I felt smug when a midwife told me I was having the perfect pregnancy / because I forgot my vitamins more than once / because I once ate some meat that looked pink / because I had a sip of wine / because I exercised in my third trimester / because I got pregnant too quickly after my first / because I wasn’t at my pre pregnancy weight when I fell pregnant again / because I carried DD1’s pram to the car boot the day I found out my baby died and that certainly caused it.

It’s years later, and I’m happy and have moved forward, but if I dwell too long on it, I can’t absolutely say that I don’t - on some level - still believe i am guilty. It was on my watch, after all.

I share this because, reading Lucy’s note, I see echoes of the same mindset: someone conscientious, emotionally attached to those in her care, and overwhelmed by guilt — whether rational or not. I can’t know if that’s the case for her, but it’s another possible interpretation of what has been described as a “confession.”

So so sorry for your loss. Thank you for your heartfelt post.

I can definitely see echoes of these feelings in other caring professions (I think they call it second victim effect) and can be more common with individuals with high empathy and perfectionist tendencies. Clinical staff can give themselves a really hard time about medical complications even when they have done nothing wrong. I am a vet, and definitely see it in clinical practice, particularly at times of stress/anxiety/low self esteem when these worries can spiral. I agree that Lucy’s notes have this kind of feel to them rather than a confession of wrong doing.

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 20:29

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 10:42

Oh great. We’re saved! The man has returned to talk down to us, demand to see our credentials/permission to speak cards, and to tell us what to think again. Fantastic 🤡

“Good analysis by the BBC in depth team:”

Hold on just a sec - Jonathan Coffey isn’t a neonatologist. I thought your rule, as self appointed lord and master of the free universe, was that no one was allowed to speak unless they are a neonatologist?

Or is that just something you apply to the silly little women on mumsnet? Like you’re mumsnet’s collie dog and we’re mumsnet sheep who simply must be corralled or there’ll be no jumpers for anyone next winter.

Jonathan Coffey is a man though, so I suppose his opinions are always sage, of value, and worth more than ours even though you don’t know what our expertise and experience is? 🙄

There are opinions on both sides. Some opinions are stronger than others. Trouble is, that no neonatologist is of the opinion that only murder could be the cause. Dewi Evans is, but then he’s not a neonatologist.

It is pretty clear, based on the opinions given, that there are far more plausible causes of death than murder. So, given that murder has not been established in the first place, and given that a serial killing nurse is an extraordinarily rare phenomenon, one set of opinions should under law (and I think will) weigh more than the other.

The defence do not have to prove innocence. The defence do not have to prove absolutely what exactly killed each baby. They just have to show that there are multiple more plausible alternatives than murder, which they have.

The prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Given that there are multiple more plausible causes of death than murder, they haven’t done that and it is looking very much like they won’t be able to do it at any appeal either, given the raft of alternative possibilities.

“the defence have not shown their expert evidence yet.”

Of course they haven’t! It’s with the CCRC. It would not be responsible to publicise it before it has gone through the proper process. How come you don’t know that? I thought you knew everything?! Oh dear.

“Re the insulin, they have done what most (all?) on this thread cannot and have asked many experts.”

You really are an insufferable 🍆

On what basis do you dismiss us all so “airily”?

Do you know what? Don’t bother answering me. I already know why. It’s because you’re a sexist 🍆

From now on I’m not replying to you or engaging with you. I’m shunning you. You are an Amish teenager who got caught with an iPhone. You are 💀 to me. Begone.

P.s you’re also a thundering bore.

Bye 👋

Edited

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Well I for one am interested in what he has to say. I know he's a man and is making your favourite ex nurse look bad, but if you could try not to chase him off the thread just for those two reasons alone that'd be great. This thread is perilously close to becoming an echo chamber. Again I'm supposedly the biased one when it's abundantly clear the two posters most convinced of her innocence just hate men 😆

placemats · 14/08/2025 20:31

🎉💕 @SellingBananas

Lost my first pregnancy and a close relative lost their first born to stillbirth.

placemats · 14/08/2025 20:39

What an incredibly ill thought and illogical post @Firefly1987

Good grief can you not read a room? Many people post on this thread who believe that Letby is guilty and rightly in prison but none have gone to the depths of beyond the barrel scrapping that you have.

Original poster

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 21:12

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 20:29

Well I for one am interested in what he has to say. I know he's a man and is making your favourite ex nurse look bad, but if you could try not to chase him off the thread just for those two reasons alone that'd be great. This thread is perilously close to becoming an echo chamber. Again I'm supposedly the biased one when it's abundantly clear the two posters most convinced of her innocence just hate men 😆

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Firefly, I am not “chasing him off the thread”. I told this foolish man that I will not be interacting with him anymore because he is, objectively, behaved rudely and with an unearned dismissive attitude to everyone (except I’m assuming you?).

I will not be spoken down to by any self regarding man, particularly when he is wrong 100% of the time. Sorry! Not sorry.

He can stay in the thread if he wants? Nobody cares I think. Let him keep embarrassing himself if he likes. But, out of ordinary decorum, he should wind his neck in and be respectful, like everyone else, regardless of whether or not they are in agreement. That’s just basic manners.

You, of all people, should know that I’m respectful and polite even if we don’t agree. I only ask the same in return.

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Mirabai · 14/08/2025 21:21

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 20:29

Well I for one am interested in what he has to say. I know he's a man and is making your favourite ex nurse look bad, but if you could try not to chase him off the thread just for those two reasons alone that'd be great. This thread is perilously close to becoming an echo chamber. Again I'm supposedly the biased one when it's abundantly clear the two posters most convinced of her innocence just hate men 😆

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As a self-confessed Tattle Life poster you’d be quite the expert in echo chambers.

Newbutoldfather · 14/08/2025 21:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Insanityisnotastrategy · 14/08/2025 21:33

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 20:29

Well I for one am interested in what he has to say. I know he's a man and is making your favourite ex nurse look bad, but if you could try not to chase him off the thread just for those two reasons alone that'd be great. This thread is perilously close to becoming an echo chamber. Again I'm supposedly the biased one when it's abundantly clear the two posters most convinced of her innocence just hate men 😆

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No problem with different views or someone being a man. How silly, frankly! The issue is with the lack of self-awareness given how knowledgeable other posters are and how relatively ill-informed that poster is while assuming an attitude of superiority.

I haven't seen any man-hating feminazis on here but I've commented myself that there's a certain thread of male hubris and not recognising their own shortcomings, whether as doctors or expert witness, running through the accusations about Letby. Women can also be arrogant of course but are overall more likely to question themselves. Very important in this context. Just a fact of human nature IMO, nothing hateful about it.

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 21:33

I have to admit, I think it’s the first time I’ve ever seen someone try to claim that a statutory enquiry (and Thirlwall has been referenced mang times in her as part of a rich tapestry of source material offered up gif discussion) is part of an echo chamber

suki1964 · 14/08/2025 21:34

Awww come on ladies, let not descend into this

Ive not been on Mumsnet very long - couple of years - and so far this thread has been one of the most intelligent threads Ive read

What I have particularly liked is that we, so far, have been able to say where we stand , and been challenged, but without resorting to name calling and belittlement. Its been very educational to me

I have learned so much from this thread and I hope many others have as well.

Insanityisnotastrategy · 14/08/2025 21:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And I don't need advanced search to know this is not the first thread in which you've been accused of being a crashing bore.

OP has said she's on bed rest atm and also thinks this is a miscarriage of justice with huge implications. No idea if she posts under other names but there's no law against being interested in one particular topic.

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 21:40

Does anyone else post on this topic anywhere else, out of interest? I do post on Reddit. One of the things I've noticed there is that people will look at your posting history when they have given up arguing with you and try to discredit you because you post on the topic frequently.

I can't understand the mentality. On Reddit (like mumsnet) you can have lots of usernames. So you don't have to be open about your posting history - you could name change every thread. Yet somehow people resort to accusations that a) you seem to take a strong interest in this topic on which you are ... expressing a strong interest, and b) you've chosen to be open about it. Fascinating phenomenon.

Anyway, I do recommend www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/ . It's a really well moderated, informed, civilized space. But great to have this thread too, and thanks @Kittybythelighthouse

Original poster

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 21:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I know you’re a man because it couldn’t be more obvious. Most men are fine, but there’s a type of man - which you are - who is just a sexist 🍆

Not sure what point you’re trying to make by saying you checked my posting history. It’s not like you’re a hacker 😂 Anything I post on public forum I know to be public. Was I supposed to be upset or something? Is that meant to be intimidating?

“She (well could be a he for all we actually know) is unshy of personal attacks”

Only on you, because you asked for it by being a sexist 🍆

“personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with her thesis”

This has literally not happened. I have been polite to everyone in this thread. I did personally attack you, again because you’re an imperious and sexist 🍆 wading into a thread of women talking, speaking down to everyone while being consistently wrong.

I almost admire the complete lack of self awareness you have to be wrong over and over but still somehow feel superior? It’s astonishing. Just fyi, a woman showing you that you’re wrong, which is what has happened to you over and over in this thread, is not a woman making “personal attacks” although I understand that sexist 🍆 men do sometimes take a blow to the ego as a personal attack.

You are a big boy. You’ll get over it.

Maybe if you stop being wrong you’ll be less upset?

“She asks what a man is doing on a parenting site.”

No I didn’t? Can you not read?

“She doesn’t want me to post further, which is fine”

I didn’t do this either. I don’t care if you do or not.

“as I have no further interest in contributing to her echo chamber.”

You have contributed nothing but a ream of pathetic attempts to lord it over everyone, but you keep tripping over your own massive clown shoes because you are never right. It’s embarrassing to witness.

Stay if you like, it’s of no consequence to me, but leave me out of it.

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Original poster

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 21:57

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 21:40

Does anyone else post on this topic anywhere else, out of interest? I do post on Reddit. One of the things I've noticed there is that people will look at your posting history when they have given up arguing with you and try to discredit you because you post on the topic frequently.

I can't understand the mentality. On Reddit (like mumsnet) you can have lots of usernames. So you don't have to be open about your posting history - you could name change every thread. Yet somehow people resort to accusations that a) you seem to take a strong interest in this topic on which you are ... expressing a strong interest, and b) you've chosen to be open about it. Fascinating phenomenon.

Anyway, I do recommend www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/ . It's a really well moderated, informed, civilized space. But great to have this thread too, and thanks @Kittybythelighthouse

Seconded! That’s a great subreddit. Extremely well researched and moderated. Room for voices on both sides. Recommended!

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Noelshighflyingturds · 14/08/2025 21:58

Countess of chester has been a shambles for 23 years. Friends had their babies there, dreadful experience

Typicalwave · 14/08/2025 22:03

Oftenaddled · 14/08/2025 21:40

Does anyone else post on this topic anywhere else, out of interest? I do post on Reddit. One of the things I've noticed there is that people will look at your posting history when they have given up arguing with you and try to discredit you because you post on the topic frequently.

I can't understand the mentality. On Reddit (like mumsnet) you can have lots of usernames. So you don't have to be open about your posting history - you could name change every thread. Yet somehow people resort to accusations that a) you seem to take a strong interest in this topic on which you are ... expressing a strong interest, and b) you've chosen to be open about it. Fascinating phenomenon.

Anyway, I do recommend www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/ . It's a really well moderated, informed, civilized space. But great to have this thread too, and thanks @Kittybythelighthouse

I follow along on X - rarely post. I’ve found there similar to here with regards the those who dogmatically insist trial was fair, no issues with the rota sheet wtc. When you ask theif reasoning the answer is ‘just because or weird behaviour etc etc - nothing ever of substance.

bakebeans · 14/08/2025 22:05

I have never understood how she they decided she was guilty with such lack of evidence.

Firefly1987 · 14/08/2025 22:07

placemats · 14/08/2025 20:39

What an incredibly ill thought and illogical post @Firefly1987

Good grief can you not read a room? Many people post on this thread who believe that Letby is guilty and rightly in prison but none have gone to the depths of beyond the barrel scrapping that you have.

I just didn't want him to stop posting because of it as I found his posts interesting (I don't care if he's male or female, it's his stats knowledge I find valuable). I don't believe everyone else here is a stats expert so anything saying the 40x figure is all wrong is probably straight from a conspiracy sub. If someone who knows their stuff can counter the conspiracy theories then I want to know about it.

Original poster

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 22:10

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/08/2025 21:55

I know you’re a man because it couldn’t be more obvious. Most men are fine, but there’s a type of man - which you are - who is just a sexist 🍆

Not sure what point you’re trying to make by saying you checked my posting history. It’s not like you’re a hacker 😂 Anything I post on public forum I know to be public. Was I supposed to be upset or something? Is that meant to be intimidating?

“She (well could be a he for all we actually know) is unshy of personal attacks”

Only on you, because you asked for it by being a sexist 🍆

“personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with her thesis”

This has literally not happened. I have been polite to everyone in this thread. I did personally attack you, again because you’re an imperious and sexist 🍆 wading into a thread of women talking, speaking down to everyone while being consistently wrong.

I almost admire the complete lack of self awareness you have to be wrong over and over but still somehow feel superior? It’s astonishing. Just fyi, a woman showing you that you’re wrong, which is what has happened to you over and over in this thread, is not a woman making “personal attacks” although I understand that sexist 🍆 men do sometimes take a blow to the ego as a personal attack.

You are a big boy. You’ll get over it.

Maybe if you stop being wrong you’ll be less upset?

“She asks what a man is doing on a parenting site.”

No I didn’t? Can you not read?

“She doesn’t want me to post further, which is fine”

I didn’t do this either. I don’t care if you do or not.

“as I have no further interest in contributing to her echo chamber.”

You have contributed nothing but a ream of pathetic attempts to lord it over everyone, but you keep tripping over your own massive clown shoes because you are never right. It’s embarrassing to witness.

Stay if you like, it’s of no consequence to me, but leave me out of it.

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By the way, this is my last response re this.

Any future comments will be treated as they deserve - no more worthy of my time than Justin Bieber fan-fiction. If you manage to grow some humility and self awareness let me know.

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