If meat is 'bad' now...

[Chokkii]

Lots of messaging these past few years about meat reduction and health, from the NHS to BHF, etc. Most of the stuff I have read about animal protein in general seems to get some pretty bad press nowadays, from increasing cancer risk to cardiovascular disease. And I don't just mean fatty, or processed meat, either!

I read a study, can locate it if anyone cares, that eating animal protein prior to 65 years old actually increased rates of cancer and all cause mortality, whilst after the age of 65 it was actually beneficial.

So! My question is, if living a vegetarian lifestyle is so much healthier, why would we require supplementation?
We are also told that women need so much iron and calcium per day - which is most readily absorbed/provided through meat/dairy consumption. Yet even the HNS seems to contradict itself by urging us to eat much, much less of it.

I recall reading that even the Dalai Lama had to begin eating animal protein due to health issues, and I am certain he was a dedicated veggie prior.

I find the messaging confusing tbh.
I eat meat in moderation myself, but I am curious what all of you think, if you've heard anything about this stuff at all?

Worth adding here: I do not have a personal bias and just want to hear people's thoughts. If I had to give meat up for eternity I can't say I would care one way or the other.

Personally I don't think meat is bad, and eat chicken and pork which i get from my local butchers weekly. However in the past ive been a vegetarian for a long stretch and also was vegan for a year, I absolutely hated the vegan diet, trying to avoid anything ultra processed as what would have been the point in giving up what I deemed good quality meat to eat something vaguely resembling a bean but having been ultra processed in a factory...
In that period food became about fuel only and there was no joy in eating.

As i say, I eat meat and i don't actually want to live forever so if I can get joy where I can thats great.

In regards to guidance I think a huge part of the "problem" is the food that is marketed as meat but is extremely cheap crap and zero nutritional value. Which is the problem, if the NHS are saying eat less meat they can hardly say to people make sure you only eat organic free range meat because not everyone can afford to spend £8 on a small chicken! So its better for them to say avoid meat.

Thanks, I too would struggle going vegan, I have terrible reactions to soy/beans etc.
I wonder what the ideal amount is?
I eat organic chicken but can't afford it more than twice per week (I buy 2 breasts). Other than that i eat oily fish. I seem to do ok.

I do sometimes think the messaging is a bit confusing. Perhaps the recent 'trend' for more protein is key, as the study I mention (and can't bloody find now!) was more focused on that than meat in general.

I just tey to avoid as much processed food as I can

I tried going vegan, but ended up just making the same meals and using a crazy amount of quorn 😭 and eating a lot of chips, which just defeated the point of trying to be healthy

As I am allergic to nuts as well, it was hard finding vegan food that was nut free

I try to make bread and pizza for dd from scratch, and now to buy organic or frozen veg

But even when you eat out, you don't really know where the food is coming from either

So to summarise - I am confused too

Without meat we wouldn't have evolved to be the large brained humans we are now..... However, we probably don't need as much as we think, and certainly not the processed crap. A balanced intake of meat (all kinds), fish, dairy and fruits and vegetables is always the best way to go.

I was a lifelong veggie and started eating a little meat a few years ago as I was run down and tired all the time. Definitely not anaemia as I'm a regular blood donor and never once knocked back.
I feel way better, more energy, more switched on mentally. It did take some time to come around and it was a real adjustment but at 33 I now still feel like I'm 21.
I think the key is not too much so chicken/fish throughout the week and maybe red meat here and there as more of a treat. I actually think we eat a bit too much in general and don't move enough and that's where a lot of the health issues come from and why things like intermittent fasting are so beneficial.

Meat isn’t bad. Red meat contains every vitamin you need so how can it be bad. Harvard published a paper in 2020 saying that saturated fat wasn’t bad as well but it’s been conveniently forgotten about

I am a life long veggie and have never needed a supplement. I also don't eat processed meat substitutes.

But I don't eat a typical British diet.

The complete proteins (amino acids) in eggs and meat do make a very decent case for omnivore as optimal, to my mind, but think it is a personal choice of course.

I was reading about vegetarianism in Buddhism, and it seems some countries struggle due to a lack of arable land.

This makes me think we evolved, optimally, to be omnivores so that we could obtain nutrition regardless where we were located.

Sadly at our population level globally I have no idea how we can dial it back, with regards to mass production (which eases poverty and hunger - whilst putting strain on the planet).

Surely by the age of, what, 30, most people have cottoned on to the fact that despite what the mags and tabloids would want us to think, most food or lifestyle habits can't be neatly categorised into "good" vs "bad" and it's always a bit more nuanced than that?

Health is hugely complex and dependent on a whole host of different variables.

Balance is key - and even with balance you're probably not going to eliminate every health risk there is, or maximise every health benefit.

Well I don't read mags or tabloids, or social media for that matter - but I understand, most people do.

I was referring specifically to scientific studies, the British Heart Foundation and the NHS.

This is one of the studies regarding protein intake and cancer. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3988204/

I agree health is very complex. Meat doesn't suit or appeal to me, and neither I nor my family need it. Other people may need it.

You cannot blame modern diseases on ancient foods.

There is no broccoli painted on cave walls. We are meat eaters.

Im a Nutritional Therapist and I’ve worked with many women in their 50s and 60s who have rampant osteoporosis and osteopenia after being vegetarian all their lives.

Vegetarians don’t “need” supplements. That said in today’s wellness world don’t we all choose to supplement with something? I take iron, vit B, vid D + K, magnesium, fish oil. It’s not a sign of poor health, just an attempt to increase it.

there is also lots of chat about how beneficial a meat diet is- see gym bros and their carnivore diet.

I chose to minimise meat- I don’t eat much red meat and no cured or processed meats. I eat fish and chicken. I am confident that red and processed meats contribute to bowel cancer which I have additional risk for.

there is lots of protein in legumes and pulses, and they contain fibre too which makes them a far more superior protein imo

That can’t be related to vegetarianism since there is no reason they couldn’t eat dairy?! 🤔

Btw it’s basically impossible to eat your daily iron recommendation. If you ate a steak / organ meat EVERY DAY you could be confident you’re close. Otherwise no way. Just try building a diet with 14mg iron in it and see how restrictive it would be to stay on it for life. Every meal would centre around iron. In large quantities

I eat dairy, nuts and lots of green leafy veg. Should be enough calcium.
I do take Vitamin D which I forgot to mention.

Could be - if they listened to all the 'cheese is bad because of fat and calories', 'full cream milk and yoghurt is bad because of fat and calories', 'eggs are bad because of calories and cholesterol' stuff as well. Add into that that some people will only regard themselves as vegetarian if they exclude eggs (with them being 'a potential chicken') and the descriptor Vegan wasn't an international/universally recognised concept, what with it being a UK invented term, so some who described themselves as vegetarian would actually have completely excluded animal products.

I know, but you were going on the assumption that meat was "bad" and questioning this - which is fine to do obviously, but it's the notion that foods are good/bad I have issue with!

Sorry I'm probably not articulating myself very well!

Also meat in huge quantities is awful for the environment. I absolutely love eating meat but I think we overdo it in the west.

I've wondered about that, too!

My OP was more concerned with the messaging and the studies about animal protein. Not really about what is bad or good in strict terms. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

I think these discussions have gained traction since the popularity of increased protein that is very fashionable right now. Most say we already have enough, some think we need mountains of the stuff!

The cancer study was quite fascinating in relation to that. And yet, there's a study to support almost anything now, tbh.

I’m really not sure why you’d assume women are a bit thick on the basis they have osteoporosis

I'm not really sure why you'd interpret that as me thinking they were a bit thick on the basis of listening to the health advice that was around for previous decades saying that those things were terribly bad and therefore shouldn't be eaten.

My mother followed health advice when she started putting on weight after GPs stopped handing out prescriptions for diet pills. She followed the no salt, no oil, no butter, no lard, no dripping, no cheese, skimmed milk only in tea, only the lowest calorie possible diet yoghurts and spreads, no eggs, no dark poultry meat, no fatty (ie, oily) fish, no red meat, no flavour rules that were the health advice of the times.

She was diagnosed with osteoporosis at 36.

I think there’s alot of ulterior motives with the messaging eg people who don’t want you to eat meat because they don’t think you should eat animals for environmental or animal rights reasons might encourage the messaging about it being bad for you. So if you wade through all that and balance what your own motives are then….

The fact is it’s an easy, tasty, non processed source of protein

That's a terribly young age to get it, I'm sorry to hear that.

My own mum developed it in her later years, which does concern me a bit. She ate well, whole foods, not too much. Enjoyed milk and butter!

I'm no expert but I do believe in everything in moderation, food wise.