If meat is 'bad' now...

[Chokkii]

Lots of messaging these past few years about meat reduction and health, from the NHS to BHF, etc. Most of the stuff I have read about animal protein in general seems to get some pretty bad press nowadays, from increasing cancer risk to cardiovascular disease. And I don't just mean fatty, or processed meat, either!

I read a study, can locate it if anyone cares, that eating animal protein prior to 65 years old actually increased rates of cancer and all cause mortality, whilst after the age of 65 it was actually beneficial.

So! My question is, if living a vegetarian lifestyle is so much healthier, why would we require supplementation?
We are also told that women need so much iron and calcium per day - which is most readily absorbed/provided through meat/dairy consumption. Yet even the HNS seems to contradict itself by urging us to eat much, much less of it.

I recall reading that even the Dalai Lama had to begin eating animal protein due to health issues, and I am certain he was a dedicated veggie prior.

I find the messaging confusing tbh.
I eat meat in moderation myself, but I am curious what all of you think, if you've heard anything about this stuff at all?

Worth adding here: I do not have a personal bias and just want to hear people's thoughts. If I had to give meat up for eternity I can't say I would care one way or the other.

I don't read those things though, that's more social media and forum based opinion.
The food culture wars are tedious, especially the elimination based diets.

I am focusing here on the NHS and other health bodies, who have been actively discouraging meat for years.
I follow the Mediterranean diet sub on Reddit, some tasty recipes and photo's - many are there on their doctor's or cardiologist's instructions, and most restrict meat to a good extent.
There is definitely a good bit of pressure, even from expert sources.

With due respect I’m assuming your mum is at least in her 70s, and what you describe re diet pills etc is even more dated than someone in their 70s would experience- my mum was born in 1956 and is too young for all that.

I would say a person seeing a nutritionist with osteoporosis now would be plenty young enough to have some a quick google or to have absorbed the plentiful literature dispelling the “eggs are bad stuff” for at least 30 years.
Ergo assuming women believe old wives tales is basically saying they’re a bit thick?

I used to eat meat but can’t now (causes vomiting).
DH eats anything but has lost muscle eating too much meat, feels sluggish, gets the sweats, gets some erm gastric issues! etc.
I’m vegan, but try to do it properly - you have to or you’ll be lacking essential vits /minerals. My body does well on it. I bloody love beans/pulses and eat loads.

Just go with how your body feels and try to eat well. What suits one, won’t suit another.

I was vegetarian for years and so is DM (she’s 83, has been told she has cancer but still strong as an ox- no explanation or tests etc it’s what the GP has advised).

How can meat cause vomitting?!?

If you have never eaten meat the texture and smell is off putting.

You can get iron through green leafy vegetables and calcium through dairy or enriched plant milks. B12 used to come from drinking stream water (soil remnants).

Being vegan made me feel like shit but I feel just fine eating mostly vegetarian with some chicken and fish thrown in. I’ve never been anemic.

I find the texture and smell of broccoli off putting but I do like eating it

I imagine there are very few people who have never eaten meat at all, prior to giving it up? I am admittedly looking at this from a British cultural lens ('cause it's the one I am familiar with).

I think a lot of the negativity to meat is because a lot of the meat we eat in this country is processed. Once that is factored in the results are different. Unprocessed meat in moderation as part or a balanced diet is good for most of us.

The tipping point about younger and older people is likely to be because middle aged and older adults need more protein in their diet than younger people so that may tip into a positive even with the amount of processing.

🧐 We are not Neanderthals, they didn’t last long did they.
Alcohol consumption, fat consumption, exercise levels, smoking are factors too no?

In terms of eating what you produce, here in the UK, our land is very well suited to grazing animals, meat and dairy. We don't have the weather (yet) for a wide range of fruit, our veggies are good, but not that varied either, and very seasonal. Meat and dairy and fish, we are an island, are the natural ingredients of our diet. Grains are OK, but we don't have enough land to be self sufficient in grain.

that doesn’t cause actual puking tho?

I believe the study concerning the over 65's requiring more protein had something to do with the body being less able to process it, so upping the quantity was a good idea (this applies to both animal and plant proteins, of course).

An excess of all protein, but mostly animal protein was said to increase all cause mortality and some cancers before the age of 65.

Please bear in mind this isn't my own opinion, it is just interesting work.

Not really, you’d have to eat kilos every day to get anywhere near the RDA for iron

What's great about veggie sources of protein such as lentils is that you get a ton of protein and fiber too, which likely assists with keeping the colon healthy (ie lower gastro cancer rates).

Where do vegan get complete amino acids? I am not very well up on veganism.

Do you think? I thought the main meat consumed in the uk was chicken. Processed meat is burgers (even burgers aren’t that process tbf), sausages, nuggets/ frozen Kiev’s- I’m not sure they form a big part of most people’s diets?! I mean they did when I was a kid in the 80s but fresh meat is very accessibly priced thanks to factory farming.

My HV used to tell me my kids would be anaemic if they didn't eat meat.
They weren't.
It's hard to explain to narrow minded people that some cultures raise babies on a diet of lentils and green leafy veg ranging from spinach to fenugreek leaves. Which I think is perfectly healthy.

By the way, the studies I reference stated higher cancer risks with any 'animal protein', NOT just overly processed meats at all. It was concerning the protein itself rather than the additives, etc.

They weren't old wives' tales in the 70s/80s/90s, though; the BHF egg guidance only changed in 2007 and even now, plenty of people still think that they're bad for you because they grew up with this belief (including my GP's practice nurse last year - she also still believed that prawns are bad). And the BHF still recommends low fat spread, sunflower oil, skimmed milk, only having oily fish once a week at most, 'To make healthier choices, choose lower-fat and lower-sugar options where possible'.

It's not being thick to trust health advice that they have grown up with and only started changing in the last twenty years; osteopenia and osteoporosis take many years to develop, so the advice from previous decades is absolutely affecting them now.

No one here has criticised your preferred way of eating .

I don't think I would get enough protein if I didn't eat meat. Though I could probably live with pescatarian, eating dairy and eggs.

I do love meat. Everything in moderation. I think I eat it or fish for about half of my meals.
The others probably contain dairy or eggs.

So I think cutting down on fatty processed meat is a good idea. But not to cut it out completely.

I have some food sensitivities and would never voluntarily go vegan. I had to cook egg, soya and dairy-free around DS's allergies intolerances for a couple of years. I do not love vegetables and pulses enough to live healthily without animal produce. I have to be very careful about soya protein so swerve the "plant-based" processed foods.

There are meals I enjoy that happen to be vegetarian. Abstaining from meat in India was no hardship for temporary period, but I think I would struggle to healthily maintain a balanced vegetarian diet indefinitely.

I have/ had long-term vegetarian friends and they have had a higher rate of anaemia than omnivorous friends. Some have lapsed for health reasons, some manage to maintain the lifestyle. The efficacy of metabolising plant and animal based nutrients is not equal, particularly iron.
There may well be a case of "women are not small men" involved. Women are more susceptible to iron loss through menstruation, and women's dietary needs aren't a straightforward needing 20% less than men as our physiology is different and varies with age more.

I don't have practical access to organic, farm shop meats (cost and location); I do buy basic supermarket meats (i.e. whole chicken, chicken breast, minced beef, pork chops) and think it's a practical, good enough source of nutrition. It's not living off cheap sausages and bacon. Sometimes it's also not so much what people are eating as what they are eating is symptomatic of what they are not eating. If you're having a bacon and white bread sandwich for breakfast every morning, in that meal, you're not eating much fibre and breadth of nutrients. That person may be likely to make other sub-optimal food choices through the day.

There's a huge amount of conflicting dietary information out there. Some long-held beliefs of the 1970s-2000s were based on flawed science e.g. eggs-cholesterol- heart disease, and isn"t standing up well to current research or historical context.

When filtering all the clashing information out there, I tend to weigh it up as:
Is it practical? Can I actually follow it?
Does it make sense?
How does it sit with tradition/ historical trends?

I'm not worried about a theoretically optimal diet. It needs to be practical, affordable, enjoyable and good enough to fuel me to help me enjoy life.

Lentils and mushrooms are a great substitute for meat - Bolognese and minced dishes reacplaments such as Shepherds pie. Have you tried lemon pasta? Delicious and quick. Personally I don't like eating fish.

Low fat doesn’t have significantly less calcium, it has less fat. Low fat still contributes to bone health. I mean, eggs have nothing to do with bone health so not sure why that’s in the conversation tbf 😂

if I did meet someone who wouldn’t eat eggs because they thought they were high cholesterol I’m afraid I would judge them for being a bit thick, yes.

Having said that I do enjoy a sirloin steak with chips. Maybe peas.

Quinoa has all the essential aminos acids, but if you are regularly combining things like legumes, grains, nuts, seeds etc in your diet along with fruits & veg, rather than eating Linda McCartney burgers or whatever, then you’ll get everything you need.

Do plyometrics, get enough vitamin D and have HRT & you reduce the risk of osteoporosis.