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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/08/2025 20:42

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way.

Did you used to think she was guilty and now you don’t, or you aren’t sure? What changed your mind?

Also vice versa: did you used to think she was not guilty but then changed your mind to guilty? What convinced you?

The reason I’m using the term ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’ is because courts don’t prove innocence. Not guilty is a legal conclusion about whether or not the state met its burden of proof.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Sometimeswinning · 10/08/2025 20:11

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 20:02

That’s fair enough. This poll is only to gauge feeling. It’s okay to sit it out.

I’m not. I’m saying you have kind of changed my thinking.

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 20:13

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 20:08

Ok I’ve watched the doc and have a few thoughts:

  • The opinion of the experts re: insulin attaching to antibodies appears compelling in isolation, however, for evidence like this to be properly scrutinised an opposing expert would need to be instructed to consider those findings. Obviously the best place for this to pan out would be inside a courtroom. That said, I don’t think this is new evidence, rather a new view on existing evidence. The point wasn’t explored in her previous trial but could have been.
  • Re: Dr Lee’s view that a venous embolism would not have caused the skin marks (as this is only documented in arterial embolism) - has he offered a view then about whether the cause of death could have been an arterial embolism rather than venous? This would obviously discredit the prosecution’s expert evidence, but doesn’t appear to rule out embolism being the cause of death. I haven’t read their papers - has he ruled out embolism entirely?
  • The documentary had a clear agenda. Things like this playing out in the public realm are not ideal. I think it’s quite clear that LL’s counsel is attempting to whip up public support to apply pressure (which is why the panel held a press conference and didn’t just submit their evidence). I think this is prejudicial to any future re-trial should one be granted. Condensing a 10 month trial into a 1 hour documentary where specific points are cherry picked and displayed without rebuttal is dangerous IMO. It’s easy to watch that doc and consider that there is reasonable doubt, but the jurors spent 10 months listening to evidence, all the facts, the speculation & the nuances and they came to a conclusion that she was guilty on some counts and not on others.

In response to point one, the CCRC specified that it was willing and waiting to hear new argument and evidence in response to Lee's press conference, and new scientific research has normally been acceptable as new evidence. Hence the data collection and modelling by Shannon and Chase would normally qualify as new evidence, by the CCRC's published criteria.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 20:15

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 20:08

Ok I’ve watched the doc and have a few thoughts:

  • The opinion of the experts re: insulin attaching to antibodies appears compelling in isolation, however, for evidence like this to be properly scrutinised an opposing expert would need to be instructed to consider those findings. Obviously the best place for this to pan out would be inside a courtroom. That said, I don’t think this is new evidence, rather a new view on existing evidence. The point wasn’t explored in her previous trial but could have been.
  • Re: Dr Lee’s view that a venous embolism would not have caused the skin marks (as this is only documented in arterial embolism) - has he offered a view then about whether the cause of death could have been an arterial embolism rather than venous? This would obviously discredit the prosecution’s expert evidence, but doesn’t appear to rule out embolism being the cause of death. I haven’t read their papers - has he ruled out embolism entirely?
  • The documentary had a clear agenda. Things like this playing out in the public realm are not ideal. I think it’s quite clear that LL’s counsel is attempting to whip up public support to apply pressure (which is why the panel held a press conference and didn’t just submit their evidence). I think this is prejudicial to any future re-trial should one be granted. Condensing a 10 month trial into a 1 hour documentary where specific points are cherry picked and displayed without rebuttal is dangerous IMO. It’s easy to watch that doc and consider that there is reasonable doubt, but the jurors spent 10 months listening to evidence, all the facts, the speculation & the nuances and they came to a conclusion that she was guilty on some counts and not on others.

Re insulin, the point of the expert panel was to help bring the case back to the courts.

Re venous vs arterial embolism. The allegation was that she induced air through an intravenous line, there were no puncture marks which there would be if it was arterial embolism. Yes, the panel does completely rule out air embolism.

To your final point:

1: the prosecution had two years to monster and vilify Letby in the media and they made great use of it.
2: all miscarriages of justice require publicity and media coverage to succeed. The judiciary simply do not overturn MoJ without public pressure. Ask the postmasters, the Birmingham six, etc.
3: we now know that the jury didn’t see all the evidence and that much of what they did see was either faulty or invented from whole cloth.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 20:16

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 20:08

Ok I’ve watched the doc and have a few thoughts:

  • The opinion of the experts re: insulin attaching to antibodies appears compelling in isolation, however, for evidence like this to be properly scrutinised an opposing expert would need to be instructed to consider those findings. Obviously the best place for this to pan out would be inside a courtroom. That said, I don’t think this is new evidence, rather a new view on existing evidence. The point wasn’t explored in her previous trial but could have been.
  • Re: Dr Lee’s view that a venous embolism would not have caused the skin marks (as this is only documented in arterial embolism) - has he offered a view then about whether the cause of death could have been an arterial embolism rather than venous? This would obviously discredit the prosecution’s expert evidence, but doesn’t appear to rule out embolism being the cause of death. I haven’t read their papers - has he ruled out embolism entirely?
  • The documentary had a clear agenda. Things like this playing out in the public realm are not ideal. I think it’s quite clear that LL’s counsel is attempting to whip up public support to apply pressure (which is why the panel held a press conference and didn’t just submit their evidence). I think this is prejudicial to any future re-trial should one be granted. Condensing a 10 month trial into a 1 hour documentary where specific points are cherry picked and displayed without rebuttal is dangerous IMO. It’s easy to watch that doc and consider that there is reasonable doubt, but the jurors spent 10 months listening to evidence, all the facts, the speculation & the nuances and they came to a conclusion that she was guilty on some counts and not on others.

In response to point 3, I agree that it's not ideal that we need public pressure to get miscarriages of justice reassessed, but history tells us that this is necessary.

There are many disadvantages to open justice and to freedom of the press, but the alternative, that we could not discuss or air concerns about injustice, would be a police state.

LivelyOpalOtter · 10/08/2025 20:17

Devonshiregal · 10/08/2025 19:09

oh my gosh I don’t think she’s attractive but she obviously doesn’t look like a typical creepy child murderer we imagine. We like to imagine we’d “be able to tell” the ones amongst us. As for that article… sources close to the case ok well whoooo? said they were produced after counselling sessions as part of a therapeutic process in which she was advised to write down her troubling thoughts and feelings okayyyy so she wrote down the thoughts and feeling she had…and those thoughts and feelings included “I killed them”? And you think that shows she’s innocent? Right then.

"We imagine" - No, you imagine. If you think that criminals have to look a certain way then I'd suggest you grow up.

Once again we see that it's only those who claim to be convinced of her guilt that think that her physical appearance is at all relevant.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 20:18

Sometimeswinning · 10/08/2025 20:11

I’m not. I’m saying you have kind of changed my thinking.

I really appreciate you saying that. It takes courage to change your mind and to admit it.

OP posts:
LivelyOpalOtter · 10/08/2025 20:20

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 19:53

The breaking point for the doctors - who engaged in email relay with management for a year while they “knew” a baby killer was stalking the wards - was when Letby won her workplace bullying grievance against them and they were asked to apologise to her.

That’s when they went to the police.

That was the first thing that made me smell a rat. Who engages in email ping pong with management for a year while a baby serial killer wanders at large? The parents whose babies were harmed during this period must be livid. I would be!

p.s: I don’t want to hear any weak excuses about them being afraid of losing their jobs. This wasn’t a dispute about provisions in the staff room, this was about a baby killer! In any case they had routes to take this further, they didn’t even go to the coroner, which was actually a responsibility if harm was suspected. There was also the Pan Cheshire Child Death Panel, which is anonymised and has a police presence. There is also the police, who even a child would know to call if they suspected someone was killing babies.

The doctors behaved abysmally whether or not you think she’s guilty. In fact they’re arguably much worse if you think she’s guilty!

Yes, your first point really stands out for me. The theory that the prosecution case rests on makes several absurd claims - but this really takes the biscuit.

Catpuss66 · 10/08/2025 20:21

Wonmoretime · 10/08/2025 11:13

I don’t think she wilfully harmed any babies but was inept at best or haphazard at worst and her confessional notes are a sign of anguish. I also think she was emotionally immature, there are stories of her parents involved in going to her workplace. There seems to be a background of concern about her but there is greater culpability with the health board for not acting sooner.

So you obviously hadn’t been well informed about these ‘confessional notes’ they were a way instigated by her trust employed counsellor to help her mental health to write down all the thoughts in her head so she got them out & wouldn’t be repeat the thoughts in her head. From what I have seen written that was what happened but these were on front page papers saying they were a confession. Also how do you at 23 ish think you would cope emotionally after being accused of murdering babies. Her parents attended a hearing after she took out grievance against the doctors for bullying it was upheld they were forced to apologise which I am sure led to these accusations.

kkloo · 10/08/2025 20:28

@heroinechic In regards to the insulin, I agree, I think there should have been proper fact finding, even if there needed to be a whole panel of experts to reach the actual facts of the situation as opposed to just one for the defence and one for the prosecution coming up with 'agreed facts' which may not be in any way factual.

I don't agree that this is prejudicial because at the same time there are news stories about her being investigated for more deaths etc. I'm not sure how a jury is selected in the UK but there's some who think she is guilty and some who think she is innocent, but there's also a large amount who are open minded and think the case wasn't proven and the verdict isn't safe, and for a re-trial to be fair they need those open minded jurors who could be swayed either way.

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 20:32

LivelyOpalOtter · 10/08/2025 20:20

Yes, your first point really stands out for me. The theory that the prosecution case rests on makes several absurd claims - but this really takes the biscuit.

They all had a handbook from the coroner saying they could speak to him privately with any concerns that were awkward to air in public. And they all knew how to dial 999.

Sometimeswinning · 10/08/2025 20:35

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 20:18

I really appreciate you saying that. It takes courage to change your mind and to admit it.

Don’t. You were very clear and I didn’t read it correctly. I always say when I’m wrong. Unfortunately I was in this case!!

LivelyOpalOtter · 10/08/2025 20:48

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 20:32

They all had a handbook from the coroner saying they could speak to him privately with any concerns that were awkward to air in public. And they all knew how to dial 999.

Precisely. If I suspected that someone was killing people in my workplace, I wouldn't fire emails back and forward to management - I'd call 999.

Catpuss66 · 10/08/2025 20:51

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 12:52

I’m astounded by this and your judgement concerns me, especially if you have children.

No one in their right mind would let a convicted child killer look after their children. Whether you think she’s probably innocent or not, if there is the slightest indication that someone might be a child murderer, you shouldn’t let them look after your children.

Probably because I did work in the nhs for 30+ yrs & know how lower band nurses & midwives are thrown to the wolves, they are bullied & harassed , even heard a female doctor say that it was more important to protect a doctor than a nurse as basically we were 10 a penny.
There was nothing in the ‘evidence’ that I have read or heard that led me to believe she deliberately harmed babies. (originally thought substandard clinical practice but not now, felt she was conscientious).

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 21:10

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 20:15

Re insulin, the point of the expert panel was to help bring the case back to the courts.

Re venous vs arterial embolism. The allegation was that she induced air through an intravenous line, there were no puncture marks which there would be if it was arterial embolism. Yes, the panel does completely rule out air embolism.

To your final point:

1: the prosecution had two years to monster and vilify Letby in the media and they made great use of it.
2: all miscarriages of justice require publicity and media coverage to succeed. The judiciary simply do not overturn MoJ without public pressure. Ask the postmasters, the Birmingham six, etc.
3: we now know that the jury didn’t see all the evidence and that much of what they did see was either faulty or invented from whole cloth.

My point about the insulin wasn’t that it shouldn’t have been investigated by the panel, it’s that the documentary focused on it for a portion, as though it was a fact. It may well be something that is disputed. There is a proportion of the general public that will watch a one-sided documentary like that and accept it all with no critical thinking.

It’s interesting that they have ruled embolism out entirely. It means that either the prosecution evidence is completely wrong or completely right with no middle ground. If it is re-tried no doubt the prosecution will instruct further experts for comment.

MOJ absolutely are overturned without public pressure, they just aren’t reported on because there is little public interest in cases which aren’t the result of public campaigns.

It’s normal for a jury not to see every piece of evidence which is submitted, the court will make a judgement on what evidence meets the rules. The doc featured a medical statistician expert who made a point about the chart not including medical events that happened while LL wasn’t on shift. As though that is of surprise to anyone. The role of the prosecution is to convince the jury of something - the role of the defence is to poke holes in it. There was nothing incorrect about the information, it just didn’t show the full picture.

In which ways did the prosecution monster and vilify LL prior to the trial? I don’t recall the Crown Prosecutor featuring heavily in a documentary about her guilt, or them holding press conferences with their medical experts.

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 21:30

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 21:10

My point about the insulin wasn’t that it shouldn’t have been investigated by the panel, it’s that the documentary focused on it for a portion, as though it was a fact. It may well be something that is disputed. There is a proportion of the general public that will watch a one-sided documentary like that and accept it all with no critical thinking.

It’s interesting that they have ruled embolism out entirely. It means that either the prosecution evidence is completely wrong or completely right with no middle ground. If it is re-tried no doubt the prosecution will instruct further experts for comment.

MOJ absolutely are overturned without public pressure, they just aren’t reported on because there is little public interest in cases which aren’t the result of public campaigns.

It’s normal for a jury not to see every piece of evidence which is submitted, the court will make a judgement on what evidence meets the rules. The doc featured a medical statistician expert who made a point about the chart not including medical events that happened while LL wasn’t on shift. As though that is of surprise to anyone. The role of the prosecution is to convince the jury of something - the role of the defence is to poke holes in it. There was nothing incorrect about the information, it just didn’t show the full picture.

In which ways did the prosecution monster and vilify LL prior to the trial? I don’t recall the Crown Prosecutor featuring heavily in a documentary about her guilt, or them holding press conferences with their medical experts.

Fair enough - some MoJ are indeed overturned without major publicity. Nonetheless, major publicity has helped enormously to overturn MoJs.

The documentary said what the prosecution claimed, and how this was being challenged. I think that shows well enough that there are developments and controversies in science - if there are viewers who don't get that, I don't think I'd slow down to prioritise them really. I liked the briskness, and the lack of mealy-mouthed "of course there are two sides" stuff. The documentary undertook to explain how Letby's prosecution is being challenged, and it did that. Nothing stopping other voices from speaking out - you have Judith Moritz tomorrow who leans much more pro-guilt.

I doubt the prosecution will find much more to say on air embolism. It was a really flimsy theory and Lee has reviewed all relevant case literature up to date. Reports for neonates are vanishingly rare. I wonder if they'll just revert to, it doesn't matter how they were killed, or maybe they were poisoned or suffocated. I wonder how many prosecution experts will be willing to face off against Lee and the others.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 21:30

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 21:10

My point about the insulin wasn’t that it shouldn’t have been investigated by the panel, it’s that the documentary focused on it for a portion, as though it was a fact. It may well be something that is disputed. There is a proportion of the general public that will watch a one-sided documentary like that and accept it all with no critical thinking.

It’s interesting that they have ruled embolism out entirely. It means that either the prosecution evidence is completely wrong or completely right with no middle ground. If it is re-tried no doubt the prosecution will instruct further experts for comment.

MOJ absolutely are overturned without public pressure, they just aren’t reported on because there is little public interest in cases which aren’t the result of public campaigns.

It’s normal for a jury not to see every piece of evidence which is submitted, the court will make a judgement on what evidence meets the rules. The doc featured a medical statistician expert who made a point about the chart not including medical events that happened while LL wasn’t on shift. As though that is of surprise to anyone. The role of the prosecution is to convince the jury of something - the role of the defence is to poke holes in it. There was nothing incorrect about the information, it just didn’t show the full picture.

In which ways did the prosecution monster and vilify LL prior to the trial? I don’t recall the Crown Prosecutor featuring heavily in a documentary about her guilt, or them holding press conferences with their medical experts.

“There is a proportion of the general public that will watch a one-sided documentary like that and accept it all with no critical thinking.”

There wasn’t anything “one-sided” about it. Every documentary has a narrative line. There have been others that were very much the other way. However, re the insulin, what was presented in the doc is settled science. Those statements are facts. It is what it is. The prosecution case was a farce. If you find this shocking well then join the club. It doesn’t make it untrue.

“It’s interesting that they have ruled embolism out entirely. It means that either the prosecution evidence is completely wrong or completely right with no middle ground. If it is re-tried no doubt the prosecution will instruct further experts for comment.”

Realistically the prosecution are going to struggle to find any experts willing to argue against that panel/in favour of Dewi Evans. If they manage to find someone they won’t have a fraction of the heft of the new defence team. They’ll quite simply be pulverised in court. The prosecution evidence is completely wrong btw.

“MOJ absolutely are overturned without public pressure, they just aren’t reported on because there is little public interest in cases which aren’t the result of public campaigns.”

High profile convictions that become MoJ are not overturned without public pressure. Not ever.

“The doc featured a medical statistician expert who made a point about the chart not including medical events that happened while LL wasn’t on shift. As though that is of surprise to anyone. The role of the prosecution is to convince the jury of something - the role of the defence is to poke holes in it. There was nothing incorrect about the information, it just didn’t show the full picture.”

This was misleading. Extremely misleading. They are not supposed to mislead. Also, it is not up to the defence to prove innocence, the burden is not on the defence to catch out slippery and deceptive behaviour. The prosecution shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. Would you think that sort of thing was ok if it was you on the stand?

”In which ways did the prosecution monster and vilify LL prior to the trial? I don’t recall the Crown Prosecutor featuring heavily in a documentary about her guilt, or them holding press conferences with their medical experts.”

Are you being serious? Even though there were reporting bans they did plenty and continued to do so between reporting bans. Allow me to point you towards:

Cheshire police tipping off the media that they were going to dig up Letby’s garden, just to make sure cameras were there.

Cheshire police making a stupid documentary patting themselves on the back for being oh so clever.

Cheshire police PAYING one of the hosts of the Daily Mail Letby podcast while the trial was ongoing.

Cheshire police holding a press conference before the trial where they only invited journalists that they liked (note the expert panel was transparent and open to all press). This is known as “message management” by the way.

Two years worth of lurid headlines like “BABY KILLER NURSE THROWS OPEN THE DOORS TO HELL!” type stuff

And that’s just off the top of my head!

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 21:33

When we say the jury didn't see every piece of evidence in this case, @heroinechic , we mean more that the judge excluded evidence that seems relevant (RCPCH report on state of the unit and deaths likely caused by care failings) or prosecution didn't disclose (third set of insulin results with apparent natural causes). No doubt there's plenty of less important stuff they didn't see and didn't need to see.

Catpuss66 · 10/08/2025 21:53

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 19:53

The breaking point for the doctors - who engaged in email relay with management for a year while they “knew” a baby killer was stalking the wards - was when Letby won her workplace bullying grievance against them and they were asked to apologise to her.

That’s when they went to the police.

That was the first thing that made me smell a rat. Who engages in email ping pong with management for a year while a baby serial killer wanders at large? The parents whose babies were harmed during this period must be livid. I would be!

p.s: I don’t want to hear any weak excuses about them being afraid of losing their jobs. This wasn’t a dispute about provisions in the staff room, this was about a baby killer! In any case they had routes to take this further, they didn’t even go to the coroner, which was actually a responsibility if harm was suspected. There was also the Pan Cheshire Child Death Panel, which is anonymised and has a police presence. There is also the police, who even a child would know to call if they suspected someone was killing babies.

The doctors behaved abysmally whether or not you think she’s guilty. In fact they’re arguably much worse if you think she’s guilty!

Maybe because there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. You cannot arrest someone based on a gut feeling think then took them 2-3 yrs to find the ‘evidence’ that why she was arrested at home.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 21:58

Catpuss66 · 10/08/2025 21:53

Maybe because there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. You cannot arrest someone based on a gut feeling think then took them 2-3 yrs to find the ‘evidence’ that why she was arrested at home.

But Dr Brearey told Karen Rees they had a “drawer of doom” filled with evidence!

He just refused to show it to her because…

He didn’t actually have an explanation for that. Funny. The “drawer of doom” went to another school I guess.

OP posts:
heroinechic · 10/08/2025 22:00

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 21:30

“There is a proportion of the general public that will watch a one-sided documentary like that and accept it all with no critical thinking.”

There wasn’t anything “one-sided” about it. Every documentary has a narrative line. There have been others that were very much the other way. However, re the insulin, what was presented in the doc is settled science. Those statements are facts. It is what it is. The prosecution case was a farce. If you find this shocking well then join the club. It doesn’t make it untrue.

“It’s interesting that they have ruled embolism out entirely. It means that either the prosecution evidence is completely wrong or completely right with no middle ground. If it is re-tried no doubt the prosecution will instruct further experts for comment.”

Realistically the prosecution are going to struggle to find any experts willing to argue against that panel/in favour of Dewi Evans. If they manage to find someone they won’t have a fraction of the heft of the new defence team. They’ll quite simply be pulverised in court. The prosecution evidence is completely wrong btw.

“MOJ absolutely are overturned without public pressure, they just aren’t reported on because there is little public interest in cases which aren’t the result of public campaigns.”

High profile convictions that become MoJ are not overturned without public pressure. Not ever.

“The doc featured a medical statistician expert who made a point about the chart not including medical events that happened while LL wasn’t on shift. As though that is of surprise to anyone. The role of the prosecution is to convince the jury of something - the role of the defence is to poke holes in it. There was nothing incorrect about the information, it just didn’t show the full picture.”

This was misleading. Extremely misleading. They are not supposed to mislead. Also, it is not up to the defence to prove innocence, the burden is not on the defence to catch out slippery and deceptive behaviour. The prosecution shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. Would you think that sort of thing was ok if it was you on the stand?

”In which ways did the prosecution monster and vilify LL prior to the trial? I don’t recall the Crown Prosecutor featuring heavily in a documentary about her guilt, or them holding press conferences with their medical experts.”

Are you being serious? Even though there were reporting bans they did plenty and continued to do so between reporting bans. Allow me to point you towards:

Cheshire police tipping off the media that they were going to dig up Letby’s garden, just to make sure cameras were there.

Cheshire police making a stupid documentary patting themselves on the back for being oh so clever.

Cheshire police PAYING one of the hosts of the Daily Mail Letby podcast while the trial was ongoing.

Cheshire police holding a press conference before the trial where they only invited journalists that they liked (note the expert panel was transparent and open to all press). This is known as “message management” by the way.

Two years worth of lurid headlines like “BABY KILLER NURSE THROWS OPEN THE DOORS TO HELL!” type stuff

And that’s just off the top of my head!

Edited

I didn’t read any further than “there wasn’t anything one sided about it”. If you can honestly watch that documentary and not consider it to be one sided then I’m afraid we are too far apart in our perception of reality to make any further discussion worthwhile.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 22:04

heroinechic · 10/08/2025 22:00

I didn’t read any further than “there wasn’t anything one sided about it”. If you can honestly watch that documentary and not consider it to be one sided then I’m afraid we are too far apart in our perception of reality to make any further discussion worthwhile.

That’s a deeply unfair comment to make in a response where I took time to answer your questions.

I’m clear that I don’t think the term “one-sided” is fair here, as every documentary takes a narrative line including any that you presumably enjoyed that took the opposite view.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 22:28

I much prefer having a variety of different voices in the media to a false balance in every programme. I wouldn't consider taking a position and pursuing it one-sided in any negative sense. The documentary was clear that there were two sides, it was giving a voice to one, and the other was the established narrative. All perfectly transparent. Efforts to make every transmission offer constant balance and counter-balance strike me as unscientific and irritating.

If we want, on the one hand, on the other hand, some say this, some say that, we can always ask AI after all!

Champersandfizz · 10/08/2025 22:38

SilverpetalShine · 10/08/2025 12:11

Can you explain this? Might be in the wrong place? Sounds interesting though.

Edited

Yes, sorry, was out for the day. It was an addition to the message I wrote above. I was just explaining that when my mum was in hospital she had a device on her end (laptop or phone, can't remember which) and we had the same on our end, and we would just be online with her throughout the night while she was sleeping as she was so scared of the nurses treating her badly. There were four of us taking shifts to be awake through her sleeping night.

A lot, I know.

But at the end of it all, one of the nurses came up to my mum and apologised to my mum for her bad treatment of my mother, saying they were all under stress and she hopes my mum will forgive her.

It has, at least, made my mum determined to never get ill again, if she can help it.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 22:39

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 22:28

I much prefer having a variety of different voices in the media to a false balance in every programme. I wouldn't consider taking a position and pursuing it one-sided in any negative sense. The documentary was clear that there were two sides, it was giving a voice to one, and the other was the established narrative. All perfectly transparent. Efforts to make every transmission offer constant balance and counter-balance strike me as unscientific and irritating.

If we want, on the one hand, on the other hand, some say this, some say that, we can always ask AI after all!

Yes. It’s the framing of the documentary as “one-sided” that I reject - this framing comes with implicit judgement that taking a narrative line (which every doc does) is somehow irregular and sinister.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 22:50

Another group of experts has now produced a paper calling for urgent review of the case.

Signatories include John Ashton CBE, who was awarded the Crown Prince medal for medical excellence

Mike Bewick - the principal investigator into mortality concerns at Leeds Teaching Hospital’s paediatric cardiac surgery unit.

David Colin-Thome OBE, the national Clinical Director of Primary Care from the Department of Health until 2010

Cambridge statistician Philip Dawid, the defence witness at Sally Clark’s appeal.

And 14 others.

Link:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/tW4bnzZ/

The below is copied from their conclusion page.

Conclusions concerning the Letby trials:

  1. The first and principal conclusion is that the legal process of all the Letby counts was profoundly flawed, leading to unsafe verdicts, and that this raises serious concerns about the scientific, statistical, and judicial procedures involved.

The Police and CPS investigative process was predicated on unsuitable expert advice, junk science and fake statistics.

  1. The international panel of 14 experts, plus two insulin experts, each member acting pro-bono responding to a British murder case, is unprecedented in terms of scale and professional expertise. The panel has found no evidence of malfeasance; infant deaths or harm were universally from natural causes or bad medical care. This information could readily have been acquired during the police investigation and subsequent CPS evaluation.
  1. Police investigative process in the Letby case failed to test adequately the fundamental assumption of malfeasance and should be held to account. Other compelling root causes of infant mortality were not given due weight. What remains benchmarks alarmingly-closely to a medieval witch-hunt.
  1. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would appear to carry the principal responsibility for launching the Letby trials without due scientific or statistical foundation. It did not establish or apply due statistical criteria in the Letby case. No identifiable mechanisms were applied to remove confirmation bias. As a detail, on what basis the decision was made to direct the Cheshire Constabulary to terminate contracted expert statistical advice needs to be established.
  1. The standards criteria for expert witnesses are sound. The Letby case reveals weaknesses in the ability of the legal system to apply these standards and to deal with complex medical, scientific and statistical evidence in criminal cases

The Legal and Judicial systems of England and Wales have been demonstrated to be unequal to complex medical science

  1. The Letby case is founded on scientific abuse and misapplication in an exceedingly complex and rapidly-developing field of medicine. It involves contributions from a wide range of scientific, medical and bioengineering specialisms. The whole process from investigation through to rejection of the right to appeal, failed to engage robust, reproduceable science. The effort required by numerous world-leading experts in unpicking the evidential fallacies of the Letby case demonstrates that this could never have been achieved by a lay jury faced with 'junk science'" and fake statistics.
  1. Given that the judge may be seen to have conducted the trial in line with current guidance, the case for a review of how trials based upon such complex medical, scientific and bioengineering issues are founded and conducted would appear compelling. The judicial system should test critically whether opportunities were missed by the judge to identify evidential failings either ahead of or during the trial. A number of issues on admissibility of evidence would appear to have steered court proceedings away from examining the shortcomings of CoCH.
  1. The learned deliberations by the three CACD judges in the judgement that refused permission to appeal the verdicts of the main trial do not stand up well in terms of scientific, statistical and medical standards. Independent guidance for the Appellate Court on scientific and medical principles could have avoided serious embarrassment.
  1. Is it safe that a majority of highly-intelligent lawyers, judges and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), be ill-equipped to be 'Intelligent Customers' of medical and scientific matter of any complexity? That legal proceedings, not least criminal trials, should go awry on account of this deficiency is surely unacceptable.

The way ahead

10. The Letby case demonstrates the fragility of the UK justice system in handling cases of scientific complexity, but in doing so it offers a rare opportunity for reform.

11. Letby's case's merits 'exceptional circumstances' treatment by the CCRC. It should be referred to the CACD, and urgently.

12. The Court of Appeal (CACD), in deliberating freshly upon the case, should look beyond current constrained definitions of
'new evidence' and exercise its intellect constructively in a complex medical, scientific and mathematical environment.

13. In addressing complex medical, scientific and mathematical cases, the Justice Department needs to have ready access to high-grade professional advice across the spectrum of professional issues; and it must know when to engage it. This 'due diligence', appropriately referenced, will be much less costly than a trial such as Letby's and the ongoing derivative proceedings.

14. There is a need to rebalance the effort and costs between (1) scientific rigour in preparation and (2) the need for 'finality' of judgement and the currently exceedingly-rigorous criteria to qualify for appeal.

15. injustice is proven, release of Letby cannot be delayed; nor can final closure for the parents of the children subject of this case, they have already suffered excessively. A seven-year delay, of the order endured in the similar cases of Lucy de Berk and Daniella Poggiali (Enclosure 7), would not be acceptable
In sum, 'The case has not only revealed horrors in the way hospitals care for babies. It has exposed deep flaws in the criminal-justice system, and risks further undermining faith in the law'.

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