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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/08/2025 20:42

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way.

Did you used to think she was guilty and now you don’t, or you aren’t sure? What changed your mind?

Also vice versa: did you used to think she was not guilty but then changed your mind to guilty? What convinced you?

The reason I’m using the term ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’ is because courts don’t prove innocence. Not guilty is a legal conclusion about whether or not the state met its burden of proof.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Leafy3 · 10/08/2025 15:51

nomas · 10/08/2025 14:38

The person I replied to said this thread is an explanation as to why she is innocent.

Actually I said that this thread is a good place to start to understand why it's debatable that she's a serial killer

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 16:04

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 10:32

The answer is natural causes and poor medical care.

The hospital started taking on more acutely ill children without having specialist neonatologists. All of the consultants were paediatricians who did neonatology on the side and spent most of their time with older children.

The hospital cut nursing staff, and regularly missed staffing standards, so babies who should have had one-to-one care weren't getting it.

The consultants did two ward rounds a week instead of two a day. So, much more than other units, this one was staffed by registrars and by trainees, many of whom were just rotating through for three months.

Errors which seem to have contributed to deaths Letby has been charged with include:

Not starting a blood transfusion on time / at all.

Setting ventilation settings too high so that children's lungs were over-inflated and their hearts put under pressure.

Long delays offering antibiotics, or offering the wrong antibiotics.

Failures at intubation.

We see lots of understaffed, dirty, penny pinching NHS units experience scandals, with higher death rates, even among babies. When experts have found these errors in the records, and the doctors treating these children weren't experts, why is it hard to believe that they simply, sadly, got things wrong?

I think it is hard to believe because it's so complex. Even just reading your opinion and others. Theres different for and against arguments. You are speaking as though you know for a fact, you don't though it is merely your own thoughts. Which is fine.

2 things can be true at once.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 16:13

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 16:04

I think it is hard to believe because it's so complex. Even just reading your opinion and others. Theres different for and against arguments. You are speaking as though you know for a fact, you don't though it is merely your own thoughts. Which is fine.

2 things can be true at once.

Aside from the first line, which is opinion, the rest of the comment is presenting facts as presented in the trial transcripts and Thirlwall documents.

”Theres different for and against arguments.”

That’s true, and it is complex. That’s an argument for reasonable doubt/a review of the case though

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 16:13

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 16:04

I think it is hard to believe because it's so complex. Even just reading your opinion and others. Theres different for and against arguments. You are speaking as though you know for a fact, you don't though it is merely your own thoughts. Which is fine.

2 things can be true at once.

That's okay, but what I can say is that 14 world-leading experts have come forward to put their names to these findings.

No experts in neonatal intensive care worked as consultants in the hospital or gave evidence at the trial. (You might just argue that Sandra Bohin was one, but she clearly gets no day to day experience with the most vulnerable children since they are transferred out of her hospital).

So I am strongly inclined to believe that this list of problems is accurate. It's worth remembering too that external reviewers, also experts, found that better care could have changed outcomes in at least 15 out of 17 cases at Chester even before the police were involved. Unfortunately that report was not admitted as defence evidence at the trial.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 16:15

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 16:13

That's okay, but what I can say is that 14 world-leading experts have come forward to put their names to these findings.

No experts in neonatal intensive care worked as consultants in the hospital or gave evidence at the trial. (You might just argue that Sandra Bohin was one, but she clearly gets no day to day experience with the most vulnerable children since they are transferred out of her hospital).

So I am strongly inclined to believe that this list of problems is accurate. It's worth remembering too that external reviewers, also experts, found that better care could have changed outcomes in at least 15 out of 17 cases at Chester even before the police were involved. Unfortunately that report was not admitted as defence evidence at the trial.

Bohin is a level 1 SCBU (not NICU) consultant in a unit with only 2 cots.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 16:20

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 16:15

Bohin is a level 1 SCBU (not NICU) consultant in a unit with only 2 cots.

There you go, then. There are literally no qualified experts on the prosecution's side

YanTanTetheraPetheraBumfitt · 10/08/2025 17:21

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 15:41

But paediatric nurses don’t look after very premature babies? I think that’s the difference that is being underlined here.

I’m not sure I understand. A paeds nurse is a child branch trained nurse working on a paediatric ward. Child branch nurses can also work on a neonatal unit, as can adult nurses and as can midwives. So child branch nurses will have the same training as a student regardless of where they end up working.

Anyone working on a neonatal intensive care unit will do top up training. The same way an adult nurse on an ICU would do top up training.

Paediatric nurse is a bit of a misnomer. There are child branch nurses. They sometimes get called Paed nurses no matter where they work. But technically in the U.K. there isn’t part of the nmc register where anyone is a Paeds nurse.

PinkTonic · 10/08/2025 17:36

Toddlerteaplease · 10/08/2025 13:49

@SealHouse I’ve heard the same evidence as everyone else on this thread. I’m also a paediatric nurse.

I’ve seen multiple people on these type of threads claiming to be paediatric and even neonatal nurses whilst still insisting she’s guilty as sin, no arguments. I find the absence of curiosity, critical analysis and interest in scientific rigour both baffling and terrifying if they genuinely are professionals as claimed.

Lougle · 10/08/2025 17:44

I think it's worth noting, as well, that tiny babies need tiny equipment. The internal diameter of an endotracheal tube for a 30 weeks gestational age infant is 3.0 millimeters. Baby veins are tiny and fragile and prone to occlusion. I can't quite believe that Consultant rounds were only twice per week. It's insane.

CarefulN0w · 10/08/2025 17:52

I’d also picked up on the description of paeds nurses which isn’t used in the UK. And as @PinkTonicpoints out, there is a startling lack of scientific curiosity.

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 16:13

Aside from the first line, which is opinion, the rest of the comment is presenting facts as presented in the trial transcripts and Thirlwall documents.

”Theres different for and against arguments.”

That’s true, and it is complex. That’s an argument for reasonable doubt/a review of the case though

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

Oftenaddled · 10/08/2025 18:12

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

I've seen people say they just come home on their pockets. I don't feel very strongly about the rights or wrongs of it in Letby's case. Only 10% of the notes at her home related to babies she was accused of killing or harming. So even if it was unusual to end up with notes at home, it doesn't seem linked to deaths or collapses.

Typicalwave · 10/08/2025 18:16

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

I work in a different sector where notes are often taken. I periodically shred mine.

Only a small number of LL notes pertained to the babies involved in yhd case -so I fail to see a link.

Im not, however defending LL. I’m defending (or rather expressing concern over) our legal process.

We should all be concerned about minimising yhe risks of unsafe convictions.

YanTanTetheraPetheraBumfitt · 10/08/2025 18:16

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

I don’t know anyone who does it on purpose but it happens a lot, and yes I work in a hospital. So handover notes aren’t part of the patient records. They’re a bit of paper you write on when you get a verbal handover at the start of a shift.

You keep it in your pocket and add to it as the shift continues to remind you of stuff. I always ensure mine don’t have names on so are confidential, but I’d write stuff like bed 2 obs 10am, bed 3 ? Discharge, hearing screen and NIPE needed, bed 5 iv abx 11:30, chase bloods. I’d never intentionally take the paper home but I often might.

MarinetteDupainCheng · 10/08/2025 18:28

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 15:41

But paediatric nurses don’t look after very premature babies? I think that’s the difference that is being underlined here.

I’m a former paediatric nurse (lapsed my registration a couple of years ago, left nursing due to my health). Other posters are correct that technically we are registered as an RN Child (and before that it was RSCN - registered sick children’s nurse, changed because nursing also encompasses preventative care) and the training is referred to a child branch, but calling ourselves paeds nurses is common place in my experience.

An RN Child can work on a neonatal unit from the moment they get their pin, but until they have completed additional training (neonatal and vent) and are “Qualified in Specialty” they will be looking after lower dependency patients. Adult nurses and midwives working in neonatal units also have the same limitations until they are QiS.

placemats · 10/08/2025 18:28

YanTanTetheraPetheraBumfitt · 10/08/2025 17:21

I’m not sure I understand. A paeds nurse is a child branch trained nurse working on a paediatric ward. Child branch nurses can also work on a neonatal unit, as can adult nurses and as can midwives. So child branch nurses will have the same training as a student regardless of where they end up working.

Anyone working on a neonatal intensive care unit will do top up training. The same way an adult nurse on an ICU would do top up training.

Paediatric nurse is a bit of a misnomer. There are child branch nurses. They sometimes get called Paed nurses no matter where they work. But technically in the U.K. there isn’t part of the nmc register where anyone is a Paeds nurse.

But this is not the case when a NICU unit is upgraded to accept very premature babies. All nurses must be trained in that speciality.

What's lacking is the support in CoCH at that time is wholly regarding consultants and registrars.

Lougle · 10/08/2025 18:30

For people who think it's odd that she took handover sheets home, there is a reason why a lot of drug cupboard keys have a large object like a wooden spoon attached to them, so that staff can't accidentally take them home. 13 hour shifts are the norm and at the end of one of those, you really aren't thinking about what's in your pockets.

newrubylane · 10/08/2025 18:32

Toddlerteaplease · 10/08/2025 15:14

Don’t forget that these babies were only in a district general hospital. Therefore not particularly unwell. And that many unexplained and unexpected collapses, just do not happen.

"just do not happen"?

https://share.google/953A3U6VMSHDp1ZXD

Statistics say otherwise.

placemats · 10/08/2025 18:32

Lougle · 10/08/2025 17:44

I think it's worth noting, as well, that tiny babies need tiny equipment. The internal diameter of an endotracheal tube for a 30 weeks gestational age infant is 3.0 millimeters. Baby veins are tiny and fragile and prone to occlusion. I can't quite believe that Consultant rounds were only twice per week. It's insane.

Yes, I can't even begin to imagine that a consultant would only be on the ward in such a high dependency unit for very premature babies would be only three times during a week.

Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 18:34

YanTanTetheraPetheraBumfitt · 10/08/2025 17:21

I’m not sure I understand. A paeds nurse is a child branch trained nurse working on a paediatric ward. Child branch nurses can also work on a neonatal unit, as can adult nurses and as can midwives. So child branch nurses will have the same training as a student regardless of where they end up working.

Anyone working on a neonatal intensive care unit will do top up training. The same way an adult nurse on an ICU would do top up training.

Paediatric nurse is a bit of a misnomer. There are child branch nurses. They sometimes get called Paed nurses no matter where they work. But technically in the U.K. there isn’t part of the nmc register where anyone is a Paeds nurse.

I think we are slightly at cross purposes. Though I am not a nurse so happy to be corrected. The actual question is whether or not a paeds nurse with no high acuity NICU experience would be as versed in the realities, particularly the extremes, of a NICU as a dedicated neonatal nurse.

Doesn’t Neonatal nursing involve post-registration specialist training, at Level 6 or Level 7 (degree/masters level), plus months or years of on-the-job exposure to high-acuity cases (ventilation, surfactant therapy, central lines, extreme prematurity, congenital anomalies etc)?

My understanding is that child branch nurse’s neonatal exposure during training may be a short clinical placement in a postnatal ward or special care baby unit (SCBU) - not in a tertiary-level NICU and that without direct NICU experience, they won’t routinely handle:

  • Ventilators and CPAP
  • Parenteral nutrition
  • Management of very low birth weight infants (<1500g)
  • Complex resuscitations and rapid deterioration scenarios
  • They may understand general principles of common conditions (e.g., jaundice), but:
  • Limited knowledge of neonatal ventilation strategies
  • Less familiarity with interpreting blood gases, managing extreme prematurity
  • Less experience with neonatal-specific drugs and dosing etc

None of which is to imply that paediatric nurses aren’t very skilled also, it’s just a different knowledge base/skillset as I understand it. Again, happy to be corrected!

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 10/08/2025 18:40

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

Once she knew she was under suspicion Lucia De Berk (a dutch nurse wrongly convicted for murdering babies) began saving her handover sheets to keep her own record of every shift. Doing this ended up contributing greatly to her eventual release.

I don’t know if this is true for Letby, but it’s very possible that she was familiar with that case (once accused). I’ve wondered about that.

That said, lots of nurses have said that they have lots of handover sheets at home and never get round to shredding them so who knows.

OP posts:
placemats · 10/08/2025 18:40

Surfactant application post birth in very premature neonates is a nightmare. Basically it's touch and go on the hour. Those that get through it have had surfactant injections pre birth.

MarinetteDupainCheng · 10/08/2025 18:42

Sweetlikecocaa · 10/08/2025 18:05

Yes. I actually haven't given my own opinion on the thread.. I think its been an interesting thread. I wonder those who are defending LL taking handover notes home work in a hospital themselves?. I can't understand that part or come to any reasonable reason. It's unhealthy to be taking work home and if its got to that stage... well!.

Handover sheets are notes to yourself about your patients. I’ve worked in units where everyone just scrawls their own on whatever piece of paper or notebook they like and on units where the NIC prints off a typed list or photocopies a list with basic info about each patient (bed, presenting complaint, safeguarding, infection status etc) and you add your own notes to it. Stuff like, when meds and IVs are due, if there is a meeting about the patient, when feeds are due or if bloods/tests needed.

Best practice is to put them in the confidential waste before leaving the unit at the end of the shift. Most people are only human and occasionally forget. We had a big issue in one hospital with staff (nursing and doctors) repeatedly dropping them from pockets in the canteen or car park and them being found by public which was not looked on kindly by Information Governance.

LL making a habit of keeping them is definitely unwise and unprofessional, and a bit strange, but I’m not sure it’s deserving of all the scrutiny it’s getting in this case.

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