Lucy Letby - what's happening

[Viviennemary]

In the last few days I've heard conflicting news stories. One an ex coroner saying she is innocent. And another piece of news saying the Cheshire police want to charge her with more crimes believed to have been carried out at two other hospitals she worked at.

I’d be very interested to see the evidence of the numbers of babies which does when Lucy wasn’t there - I hear this banded around a lot, and yet no one has, as far as I have seen, provided any sort of evidence for or list of these events….
There was one baby who collapsed after Licy went off shift - I think this was one they thought had extraneous insulin poisoning.

@OurBeautifulBaby a whole panel of experts have reviewed the evidence and said she didn’t do it. They can’t just stop talking about it for the sake of the victims.

Theres a very good Red Handed Podcast that breaks down the independent investigation from Feb this year. Very interesting and also very worrying.

If Lucy Letby was a man, nobody would be saying she’s innocent.

I’m sick of all the conspiracy theories every time someone gets convicted of a crime. There are people who don’t believe Brian Kohberger is guilty. Ridiculous.

The Birmingham six was a very long time ago when there was more margin for error.

She has not been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt though has she? For all those saying yes she is innocent and those no she is guilty none of you know for sure. The evidence was circumstantial with not one fully conclusive thing to convict her - this is what bother me I could not stand up and shout either way. A life tariff is an awful long time if there is potential she did not do this.

If Lucy Letby was a man, nobody would be saying she’s innocent.

The Birmingham six was a very long time ago when there was more margin for error.

Load of bollocks.

An affair? She must be a child murderer then. Sod what multiple medical experts say - burn the witch!

🙄

You’re the one talking ‘bollocks’ actually. Circumstantial evidence is evidence and has been used to convict people in many cases. You clearly don’t know how the law works.

What he said was much much worse. And should serve as a reminder to many posters

Appalling Vista - Lord Denning
A controversial judgment was that in the appeal of the Birmingham Six in 1979. Denning's view was that:
If the six men win, it will mean that the police are guilty of perjury, that they are guilty of violence and threats, that the confessions were invented and improperly admitted in evidence and the convictions were erroneous... This is such an appalling vista that every sensible person in the land would say that it cannot be right that these actions should go any further. [2]
He also commented that "We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied."

“"A big thing is that it only describes 25 of the bad events which happened in this period.
"It doesn’t include any of the events that happened when Lucy was not on duty."

There were at least six other deaths and numerous collapses.”

From bbc article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39k44n8j1mo

I think there are definitely conversations to be had about how someone is perceived based on their identity but I think if your leading point about why someone is guilty is based on their sex, race etc then your argument is weak.

I think they are also looking to charge NHS management in conjunction with what happened. This doesn't mean she wasn't guilty. Just that they didn't handle it well and let her continue for longer. They are also looking into whether she committed further crimes.

If a panel of some of the world’s most esteemed neonatologists are able to review the medical notes and conclude that they have doubts about the safety of the conviction, then that is enough for me to feel very uneasy about it. It will be interesting to see what the miscarriage of justice review panel end up saying. I don’t think this is going to go away, and it doesn’t sound to me as though the families have fully been given the answers they need, especially regarding the hospital’s failings.

It wasn’t a mess. Odd that nobody else on the ward has been sacked or found responsible for this alleged mess that they made LL take the fall for. Also odd that the consultants in charge were begging for the police and investigators to come in and find out what was going on. Not really how you’d expect people running a shambolic ward to behave.

There weren’t any really. Maybe a couple of deaths from natural causes. But the way people go on about the rota evidence you’d think there were constant collapses and deaths and that table was drawn up just based on when LL was on shift. That’s not true. Those were the vast majority of the deaths and she was there for all of them (25). The most anyone else was there was for 8 of them.

She did loads of extra shifts because she was asked to, because she was good.
They investigated the deaths of babies when she was on shift. Therefore she was on shift for all the babies they looked at.
She had an affair with a married Dr. He is more guilty than her- he’s married, imbalance of power- but she’s the murderer?
Statistics experts don’t like the evidence against her leading neonatologists don’t like the evidence against her, and chose to go public as a group at their own expense despite there being nothing in it for them.

The hospital was badly maintained, poorly run, even in comparison to NHS everywhere.
The babies were very poorly.
When you hear hooves, think horses not zebra.

Because the police, for the moment, are sticking to the narrative that Letby is guilty. Therefore they are presumably still blaming managers for not stopping her. They will continue to stick to the narrative that she is guilty until the conviction is overturned.

The arrests don't suggest they have any new evidence about Letby.

I think there has to be a degree of doubt listening to the medical experts who reviewed the case. These are all highly expert and eminent professionals in the field. One of whom who got involved because his own paper was misinterpreted during the trial.

Many people will know how precarious the safety is in some nhs maternity units. It won’t come as a surprise that an alternative version of events is that the unit was run appallingly and wasn’t safe. It must be heartbreaking for the parents but if she is innocent, that must be uncovered. It can’t just be left alone because the narrative is inconvenient.

If you look at the Thirlwall Enquiry chart of deaths, Letby was present for 10 out of 18 in the period under investigation.

If you line up every nurse in Britain, a handful a year will have the same pattern of deaths as Letby. Believing that that makes her guilty is like believing nobody can ever win the lottery without cheating.

Usually you might have expected a pattern of concerning behaviour. Friends, school mates, acquaintances, old teachers, neighbours.

There doesn't seem to be a history that suggests she would be motivated or capable of doing this crime.

It's a shame the parents are going through this, but they aren't medical experts - they've been told Letby harmed or murdered their children and at least some of them still believe that. I am very sorry for them but that doesn't mean you can leave someone in jail when genuine experts are saying the children died of natural causes or medical failings.

She wasn’t working loads more hours than anyone else. She was keen to pick up extra shifts but she wasn’t doing 70 hour weeks or anything. There were a few more deaths (someone said 6 upthread) but they were expected ones but even if you took those into account she was there for a vastly disproportionate amount compared to anyone else on the ward. She goes on holiday - deaths stop. She goes on admin leave - deaths stop. Plus the falsifying of medical notes to make it seem she wasn’t involved.
I genuinely don’t think she had an affair with Dr A. I think it was probably just a crush on her behalf and days out - I would be surprised if it was a sexual relationship.
None of the leading neonatologists have properly reviewed the trial evidence and one person who did claim she was innocent then backtracked and qualified his claim. This all came out in her appeal where the convictions were all considered safe.

Let us also remember- she was represented by a top KC and would have been entitled to bring all the expert evidence she wanted to refute that of the prosecution. She chose not to and the inference from that is that none of it helped her.

Not always. That’s a very dangerous way of testing guilt. And if you do want to go down that road there is evidence eg from her placement that she was odd and lacked empathy and shouldn’t be a nurse in the view of her assessor. Also evidence from the parents of the children plus colleagues about odd and inappropriate behaviour. Harold Shipman was a very popular GP and his patients thought he was great. Didn’t mean he wasn’t a killer though.

www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8y28ny1n0o.amp

I also think she is innocent. I know evidence with journals and such but something just doesn’t feel right. I’m not a big conspiracy theorist but I just don’t believe she is guilty.