What should I do?

[SENsupportplease]

Looking for advice from other parents about a situation at my daughter's school. I don't know if i'm out of order or the school are.

Sorry it's so long I don't want to drip feed.

On Friday my daughter (10) was involved in a nasty incident, group name-calling and nastiness to another child, which she then continued after being asked to stop by her class teacher.

When this was reported to us via telephone, we took it very seriously. Told the school we would deal with it, support them dealing with it, and offered our apologies to the student and parents on DD's behalf. They seemed happy with this and thanked us.

Explained to DD the possible consequences of bullying (teacher did not call it this but we did), started restorative justice (recommended by the school) by getting DD to write an apology letter, and removed her pocket money that week. DD seemed genuinely apologetic.

Later that day was the school fair which we attended as a family, before leaving DS and DD to enjoy it with their friends - normal and acceptable behaviour at our primary.

DD saw the other child at the fair and went to apologise, which he accepted. His mum told DD to go away, which upset her. We explained that it is fair enough that the apology isn't accepted and the mum must be very upset for her son.

Then (we had left by this point) DD was watching the orchestra performance with 2 friends and they had their phones out to record another friend performing. The boys mum and grandma surrounded the three girls, grabbed at DD's phone, shouted at them, told them to "piss off," leaned into their faces, and physically pushed my daughter. By this point one of the other girls was inconsolable.

Not sure if it's relevant but the other girls had not been involved with the initial bullying incident that day.

The girls reported it to their class teacher who told them to move away, which they did. When we went to collect DD we saw how upset her friend was, asked what was wrong, which is when the girls told us what happened. We decided to go back up to the school and report it immediately.

On the way up to the school we passed the other family - DD pointed them out to us, which they overheard, and they came up right into our faces. Shouting "it's been three years of this" and "NOT TODAY". I (bearing in mind i had three upset children there) stayed very calm, acknowledged the awful bullying situation but pointed out it was not appropriate for them to have behaved that way. Grandma in particular was very proud of her behaviour and said it was her who was swearing at the girls. We said we were going to let the school deal with it and left.

We went to the school to report this, the head teacher kept saying "well IF this happened" despite me explaining that the adults had admitted it. She also repeatedly said that she didn't see anything. It felt like she didn't believe the children - or us - at all.

At no point did she acknowledge our complaint about the other adults; instead she started telling the girls off for having their phones out. To be clear, their recording policy is that recording is ok but no uploading or sharing to socials. If they have a different policy for children, they have not made it clear to us as parents, on our website, or to the children. The head almost used it as a way to justify the behaviour of the other adults.

My daughter already struggles with feeling like her teachers don't believe her, and this has made it so much worse. She's now also worried about seeing the aggressive adults outside school.

I've made a written formal complaint to school against the parents, and i've raised my concerns about how the school initially dealt with the report. I've also asked if it has been three years worth of bullying / nastiness involving DD, as the first report I've had about this child and DD was on Friday.

School have come back to me today and said there is no method of making a complaint against other parents. They have ignored my other comments.

Am I overreacting?

How would you expect your child's school to handle something like this? And what should I do now?

DD is Au-DHD and has huge SEMH and impulsivity issues. This is NOT an excuse. Just avoiding dripfeed.

I'm defensive because this thread has become about DD being a bully for three years which I don't think is the truth, and also wasn't the reason I posted. I posted for advice for me - which I don't feel I'm getting.

I have responded to the advice i did get (move schools feels like too big a second step, reporting to the police feels like a bit much as I'm not sure its assault), but the rest of the responses have been opinions - and not very kind ones at that.

However I'm not angry. Hurt, worried, overwhelmed, wanting to protect my DD (and the two other girls who are very close) - and even this lad who was mistreated because I don't think it's great for him seeing his mum and gran behave like that.

And I don't want any involvement with the other adults, it's disappointing that they engaged with DD or any of us. I don't want to be in the middle - in fact I don't see myself as part of this. I see it as the girls and the adults, and the girls need to be safeguarded and the adults need to know what appropriate conduct at school events is.

Had the behaviour happened outside of school, I would still have reported to school for their awareness that the situation had been escalated. I don't know who I would have reported the conduct to though.

Hypothetically if this had happened in a park, what would people suggest?

If I am unreasonable for reporting to school and expecting them to do anything, then I accept that. But I am surprised.

I also feel that their initial response (to not believe the three girls) is worrying and has made me question some things which DD and DS have reported in the past about not being believed.

Are you overreacting?
Did the adult assault your daughter?
If yes then no you're not over reacting.
If no then yes you are over reacting

How would you expect your child's school to handle something like this?
I wouldn't expect them to do anything.

And what should I do now?
Did the adult assault your daughter?
If yes then go to the police.
If no, then stay away from them in future.

School haven't said that your daughter has bullied the other child for 3 years. It was the other family that said '3 years of this'. Maybe your daughter was involved previously and school didn't know. Maybe this was the first time she was mean. But the other kid has apparently been bullied for 3 years by someone. Since school haven't blamed your daughter for 3 years of bullying, that's non of your business. You really need to let this go and stop creating drama

She had her phone out to innocently film a concert.
Are you sure about that? Maybe that child has had pictures taken and plastered on social media? Maybe the bullying isn’t only in the playground but after school on Snapchat? Maybe when mum and grandma saw your daughter with her phone out innocently about to film a concert that flipped and assumed it was leading to something else?
Maybe it was all innocence personified and maybe it wasn’t?
Maybe the girls were inconsolable because they were caught doing something?
Who knows?

I’d teach my kids actions have consequences.

Thanks for your reply.

I don't think it was assault, it wasn't violent though obviously i wasn't there.

I suppose DD could have been doing sneaky three years of bullying but i'm not sure how the school wouldn't know if this was the case as the two don't have contact outside of school. The reason I find it relevant is because the mum used it as justification. If it's true, I have a big problem. If not, I think the mum should be informed of the truth.

Bearing in mind the other two girls definitely weren't involved but were still verbally attacked.

I don't think I created drama, to my mind this stopped with the punishment and apology. I think the parent and gran created the drama. And again - staying away from them - I had no idea who they were.

Please also bear in mind I wasn't the only parent, one of the mums of the other girls was also there at the report and made a complaint.

My DD doesn't feel safe, she is very worried, scared, doesn't want to be at school and believes her teachers won't believe her. This situation has escalated an already existing problem.

I'm finding it hard to believe that other parents wouldn't expect the school to remind parents of appropriate conduct and try to reassure three upset girls that they are believed and they are safe.

When you say let it go - the school communicated about it today. It's not been something I've been holding on to.

DD doesn't have social media so I'm pretty sure it's not that.

She didn't get a chance to record anything so I can't know for sure, but all the girls said the same thing - they were there to watch [fourth friend] perform. The boy wasn't performing so I don't see how they would have filmed him.

The girl that was inconsolable has big anxiety problems and is in the RP at school, this has really affected her. She is the kindest girl and doesn't have a mean bone in her body. I don't think they were doing wrong.

However you raise a good point that the bullying could be online, the parent might have made an incorrect assumption. However, they could have alerted a teacher to deal with the girls rather than address the situation themselves.

While actions do have consequences, I don't think that these consequences are the right ones. Are they?

Maybe they are and i'm completely out of touch. i just can't imagine ever behaving like this, I don't know how to make DD feel safe, and I am completely at a loss.

Tbh whoever is right or wrong, it's not going to get better for an investigation, forced apologies or anything else.

Either move on, making sure DC doesn't repeat the bullying or move away..

Sorry but these things fester. You'll always be looking out for the dudes who starting swearing.

Why was she allowed the attend the school fair on the very same day you got the call about her bullying this child? And not only did she attend but you left her there with her mates?

Where were her sanctions?

Ok. Let's get something straight. Lawyer here. Deliberate physical contact that isn't consented to is assault. The consent can be explicit or implicit- you imply consent to being knocked when walking down a busy street for example.
There are levels of assault but it doesn't have to be violent like a punch. You describe here pushing her away. Unless it was pushing her away to stop your child from intimidating or attacking the mother then that is assault.
There are defences to assault. Being angry about how the person has acted or her child being bullied for 3 years isn't one of them.

So what you have here is an adult assaulting a child on school premises and school taking the view its nothing to do with them. The school have a duty to protect the children in their care.

Now it's clearly not the most serious of assaults.
Escalating things yourself with the mother and grandma is likely to make things much worse.

Now not as a lawyer just as a parent.
I think you should do the following.
Write a complaint to the governors. Do it nicely.

You are concerned that your child informed the head teacher of being assaulted by an adult on the school premises and of 2 other children being intimidated and highly distressed due to the same incident, in circumstances where you were able to confirm that the said adults not only admitted it to you but did so proudly. You are very concerned that the child's account and your confirmation that it was admitted was dismissed. You are concerned that the head took no steps to reassure the child she would be safe in school. You are concerned the head has taken no steps to ensure your child will be safe in future.
You recognise that there was a background to the incident. You recognise that whilst mistaken about your child's level of involvement and the other children's total lack of involvement, the adult concerned has a right to be upset about things that had gone on with her child at the hands of children in school. However it is not acceptable for an adult to push a child or to frighten 2 others and it is not acceptable for the head teacher to take no steps to ensure the future safety of the children on school premises from adults.

Send it to the head teacher explaining you are minded to send it to the chair of governors but thought before you did so you should give the head teacher a chance to reflect and perhaps agree to meet with you in order you can together work out what you can do to reassure your daughter.

I think the head is probably keen not to get involved with one family whose daughter is a bully (sorry but she was a bully on your account) and another family with adults who have attitude problems and think the way to handle this is for grown adults to intimidated kids, grab their property and push them. I have massive sympathy for the head wanting to duck out.

Your beef with the head is in the protection and reassurance of your child and their apparent dismissal of what was a serious incident - they should have recorded it (usually a computer package called in CPOMs) - ask if it was recorded. Your beef is not that they won't intervene in an argument between you and the other adults.

You could take this up with the police and ask that an officer go and speak to the mother and grandma. I wouldn't. I think that will inflame the situation. If they think it's ok to push and intimidate children who at the time were doing nothing it won't do any good and will make it worse for your child. In their heads they were justified. It's not your job to educate them.

Concentrate on helping your child not punishing them.

In terms of what you can do yourself with your child. Sit her down and tell her that sadly they're are some idiot adults in the world. Tell her that even adults that aren't idiots are human beings and they would've been really upset and hurt that their child had been bullied. Try to get your child to understand that. Tell them acting that way isn't acceptable but sometimes behaviour that's unacceptable is wholly understandable in terms of feelings. Explain that it seems to have been a bit of a case of mistaken identity (whilst not minimising your child's part). Tell them you're really proud of them apologising and that it isn't fair that what happened was the result but that if she's done something wrong in the future she should not be afraid to do the right thing and apologise again.

Try and steer clear of the mother and grandma in future but make sure you're not giving them dirty looks and looking like you're avoiding them. If they engage with you be polite and understanding but hold your ground.

And I note you keep saying you're not angry. I think it's a safe assumption you are angry. This is your child that was frightened and you've seen injustice in her being dismissed and disbelieved.

Also this although I think you'd say the sanctions were a lecture and having to write the apology. If it's a one off I think that's sufficient. If being ill behaved isn't a one off you should probably start questioning your parenting (I generally take the view everyone should question their parenting regularly)

I can't believe the responses I'm seeing here. So much discussion about what your daughter did or didn't do. It's all irrelevant! The fact jumping out here is that your child was assaulted by an adult on school premises and the school is doing nothing about it.

@veryverytiredmummy has given the only sensible answer on this thread - please take note of what they say and act on it. Good luck, it won't be easy but you should have your daughter's back here.

She was helping on a stall
school encourage restorative justice but we did remove her pocket money for that week
i dont think multiple punishments are reasonable

the school said ‘dd joined in with a group who was name calling and being unpleasant to another child, and when asked to stop it continued’

School told me specifically what DD said and I dealt with it in a way they expressed thanks for. I didn’t take it lightly the phone call ended with teacher saying ‘see you at the fair’. She could have banned DD then if she felt it appropriate.

She is Au-dhd. As a result I question my parenting every single day.

its very, very, very hard. I want her to grow up a good person who makes the right decisions. I am trying to help her.

i also want her to be able to trust and rely on the adults around her.

I actually didn’t lecture her. She can’t absorb a lecture. Instead we discussed the potential consequences. Which upset her greatly and brought it home to her. We talked about how to have the confidence to not join in with things we know are wrong.

i explained why what she said to the boy was wrong, as she didn’t understand.

the apology wasn’t intended as punishment, rather the right thing to do if she was actually sorry, which she was.

I did my best. She didn’t deserve to be aggressively intimidated at school, or disbelieved by her teachers. She isn’t a liar - quite the opposite - you get cold brutal truth from DD.

thank you for your detailed and considered reply.

Dd was not intimidating or attacking the mum. At least, no one has reported that, and the mum did not mention it in our interaction.

I don’t wish to engage with the parent or grandmother, I know what it’s like to feel at my wits end with an unhappy child. Nor do I want to have an argument with them! But I do wish the school would believe the girls, reassure them, and remind parents of appropriate conduct.

while I’ve not replied to the schools email saying I can’t complain, I know the other mum (of the inconsolable girl) has regardless, and an investigation is ongoing. So I may wait to see the outcome. However your suggestion to the governors is really reassuring and will be my next step.

i know dd joined in with bullying, but she isn’t a bully. She is SEN and makes bad choices. What she said to this boy was born out of ignorance more than cruelty.

my feelings? I’m frustrated. Lost, doubting myself. I don’t have the energy for anger. Sad for DD that she went through this and that she behaved as she initially did. Sad that we have yet another problem on our hands. (Lots of problems, not all related to bad behaviours, just lots of battles with the school to get her adjustments)

i wasn’t angry on this thread

This!! Well done @veryverytiredmummy !!

Dd was not intimidating or attacking the mum. At least, no one has reported that, and the mum did not mention it in our interaction.

@SENsupportplease you are misreading @veryverytiredmummy 's advice. What she's saying is that when the other parent/grandparent pushed your child aside and shouted aggressively at her ... that is assault .

You seem to be stuck at "my child is a bully, how do I parent this". From what you've been saying, I think you have already dealt with it very well. It's now time to move on to "my child was assaulted by a parent and grandparent while at school, what should I do about it?"

How did your daughter like been bullied, OP? Maybe she'll make better decisions next time before she does it to someone else. The problem with bullying someone you deem weak is you never really know if they (or someone else close to them) might turn.

Obviously the grandparent's behaviour was completely out of order, you reported it to the school and were right to - adults can't go around behaving like that, no matter how distressed the child is.

Let it be a life lesson.

She has been bullied since reception - physically and verbally because she just doesn’t fit in

she has never liked it

her keyworker thinks it’s why she is such a people pleaser now and joins in with group behaviour

I’ve never gone after the kids involved though

her decision making is getting worse as she gets older and the SEN is harder to mask

bear in mind I called it bullying because she joined in with a group. The school did not.

I’ve also found out my child’s exact involvement. It’s really not on par with how the parent and grandma behaved.

Thank you, I feel like even though I asked initially about the parental issue and my next steps, the thread very quickly became about how awful DD is and what a poor parent I am

I didnt say it was, her behaviour was completely out of line! Complain again, by all means, but its still a life lesson.

Perhaps a calm, carefully worded letter of apology to the boys parents, setting out everything you have here and inviting them for their version of your daughters involvement in any bullying (the boys side of the story) might go some way to all of you understanding what had been going on? If you can engage with them and assure them you will do everything in your power to help their son through this may help? They probably feel just as let down and helpless as you and have been and for 3 years apparently?

She couldn’t go in today. Frozen and then a meltdown.

Apparently she was removed twice from class yesterday and put in the quiet room while 1) two teachers questioned her about what happened and 2) told her off for talking about the school fair situation. She tried to tell them she had not talked about the situation (as we had told her not to) but that she had been asked by a couple of girls, and she said she wasn’t allowed to talk about it. She says they did not believe her and she was in trouble.

There were plenty of other kids there who saw what happened who could have been talking about it.

She missed her art class which she is very upset about.

She has also said that the school don’t ever believe her or listen to her and that she is being targeted, and no one else was removed from class to be asked about it.

again obviously I wasn’t at school, but DD is not a liar, she is pretty good at following direct rules like “do not mention what happened at the school fair to anyone”, plus I checked her phone and when asked, she did say she wasn’t allowed to talk about it.

I don’t know what to do. It’s becoming a massive shit show that she does not deserve. School was hard enough before this.

I already said I’m not
the other parent (whose child was not involved in Fridays nastiness) however is

I won’t be making any contact with them

dd already genuinely apologised to the boy as per school guidelines

I also don’t know that the boy has even said DD has been involved for three years. It’s all assumptions / bear in mind this parent and grandma included 2 totally innocent kids in their attack. I doubt the boy would have mentioned their names.

DD has not been involved for three years. It was just Friday.

apparently a group of kids were laughing at him and teasing him for (their words) “having an AI girlfriend”. Using unpleasant names. Dd asked “why do you have an AI girlfriend”. The group was asked to stop. DD persisted and asked again “but why do you have an AI girlfriend”.

that was her involvement as confirmed by school. Her ELSA have said there is no other record of DD having negative interaction with this boy.

DD should not be the poster child for whatever else has been done to this boy just because she was the one who apologised to him.

Bet your DD won’t do it again after all this shit show will she?

So it worked.