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Assisted Dying Bill passed by slim majority

493 replies

smallglassbottle · 20/06/2025 15:24

https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-starmer-assisted-dying-trump-israel-iran-labour-12593360

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19
OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:30

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:20

So it is about saving money?

No, that's not what I said is it? In a perfect world we would have all of the money we need for everyone to have fantastic medical and palliative care from cradle to grave, no-one would die horrible painful deaths, there would be no war or fighting, etc etc.

Unfortunately for us, we all have to live in the real world though, where money is a finite resource and we have to make hard decisions about where it is best spent.

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:32

If it goes through, I don't think the NHS should be involved at all. It would be a dangerous blurring of medical professionals' roles, and will understandably cause some people to not trust the very people who they should be able to trust when they are at their most vulnerable.

I actually don't think the people staffing it should be paid by the government either. Perhaps the service could be funded by donations, in the way that palliative care is funded now.

Dymaxion · 20/06/2025 21:33

The most painful death I witnessed, however, was that of my beloved father. He died in an NHS hospital—not from illness alone, but through a process of starvation and dehydration, legally sanctioned under what was called the 'Liverpool Care Pathway.

The Liverpool Care Pathway was designed by those in the Hospice Movement with the aim to allow those in hospital to get a similar level of care. I remember the time before it, working on the wards and you wouldn't want a hamster to go through what people did, junior Doctors terrified of prescribing sufficient end of life medications over a weekend because they weren't trained to recognise a dying patient. However, the pathway wasn't implemented with enough training for either nursing or medical staff, the inbuilt safeguards ignored ( regular reviews) and the age old issue of the acute sector getting bored as soon as someone isn't 'fixable'.

As someone who spends a lot of their working life looking after people who are dying, I can see both sides of the argument. I hope the Lords give this Bill their fullest attention. They are going to need to strip away the emotion from a very emotive issue to ensure appropriate legal safeguards are in place.

ARichtGoodDram · 20/06/2025 21:34

Lalgarh · 20/06/2025 19:09

Vote splits by MP:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd78nvn2r1yo.amp

Dianne Abbott, and many ex Labour independents (except John McDonnell) voted against.

All green MPs voted For.

For Reform, 30p Lee, Farage and The dodgy Essex one Against, Burka Pochin and Tice voted For.

Plaid Cymru voted 3 for 1 against. Scottish National Party MPs not voting on this, but Unionists did and all Against, even though this affects England and Wales

Edited

I see the SNP didn't vote buy it looked like other Scottish MP's did. That sits very uncomfortably with me.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 20/06/2025 21:35

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:19

Six months of high quality palliative care and all of the people and resources that requires vs the assisted dying process as per this bill? Not even close if you ask me.

Training, therapists and Dr's need to be involved in each individual application. If there's no money for palliative care, there's no money for this. The fact people are pleased this is cheaper, is just the beginning.

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:36

ArtTheClownIsNotAMime · 20/06/2025 18:00

What a load of shite.

Speaking as a Doctor it really isn’t . The NHS is in a terrible disorganised mess & bumping off people within such a system will be a preferred method of cost cutting . Who do you think is going to hold doctors to account after your death ?

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 20/06/2025 21:37

somethinggoodisgonnahappen · 20/06/2025 21:24

I can’t believe anyone is advocating suicide as a viable alternative!

But assisted dying is suicide. The only difference is that you are given the drugs with which to commit suicide. You are still required to be able to take them independently, so you are effectively committing suicide. In most countries it is in fact called assisted suicide

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:37

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:30

No, that's not what I said is it? In a perfect world we would have all of the money we need for everyone to have fantastic medical and palliative care from cradle to grave, no-one would die horrible painful deaths, there would be no war or fighting, etc etc.

Unfortunately for us, we all have to live in the real world though, where money is a finite resource and we have to make hard decisions about where it is best spent.

So it is about saving money. Assisted dying is cheaper than good palliative care. Although, if it the implementation is done thoroughly and every case is carefully looked into, it won't be cheaper.

Which is why I am absolutely certain it won't be implemented carefully.

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:38

MiloMinderbinder925 · 20/06/2025 21:35

Training, therapists and Dr's need to be involved in each individual application. If there's no money for palliative care, there's no money for this. The fact people are pleased this is cheaper, is just the beginning.

I'm not 'pleased' it is cheaper. I'm just fairly sure it will be and so is at least vaguely possible, unlike the fantasy that is good quality palliative care for everyone.

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:39

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:37

So it is about saving money. Assisted dying is cheaper than good palliative care. Although, if it the implementation is done thoroughly and every case is carefully looked into, it won't be cheaper.

Which is why I am absolutely certain it won't be implemented carefully.

No - it is about what is possible.

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:45

People on here saying ‘I haven’t been following it but in principle it seems a good idea ‘ etc are being so horribly naive.
Why do you think Doctors , nurses , carers etc are almost all against this ?
Healthcare will increasingly be rationed .
Witholding treatment for the elderly for conditions that could give them ( YOU one day ) a good quality of life will be discouraged .
.

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:46

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:39

No - it is about what is possible.

Good palliative care is possible. The government has just never chosen to fund it (either Conservative or Labour). To be honest, if we're at a point where whether we should live or die depends on economics, for me the idea of a society that cares for the vulnerable has broken down completely.

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:47

wordywitch · 20/06/2025 16:34

That’s as ridiculous as being against abortion because you think it will lead to the condoning of murdering 5-year-olds. All this ‘whataboutery’ is nonsense.

It Is exactly what has been happening everywhere else

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:49

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:46

Good palliative care is possible. The government has just never chosen to fund it (either Conservative or Labour). To be honest, if we're at a point where whether we should live or die depends on economics, for me the idea of a society that cares for the vulnerable has broken down completely.

Everything depends on economics and always has! We live in a capitalist society. Pretending otherwise gets us nowhere.

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:51

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:30

No, that's not what I said is it? In a perfect world we would have all of the money we need for everyone to have fantastic medical and palliative care from cradle to grave, no-one would die horrible painful deaths, there would be no war or fighting, etc etc.

Unfortunately for us, we all have to live in the real world though, where money is a finite resource and we have to make hard decisions about where it is best spent.

And here you have it . The ‘argument’ which leads to creep . Who is worthy to live ? Who is considered too expensive?
One minute we are considering offering euthanasia to people in the last stages of terminal illness , the next …

IncompleteSenten · 20/06/2025 21:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:51

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:45

People on here saying ‘I haven’t been following it but in principle it seems a good idea ‘ etc are being so horribly naive.
Why do you think Doctors , nurses , carers etc are almost all against this ?
Healthcare will increasingly be rationed .
Witholding treatment for the elderly for conditions that could give them ( YOU one day ) a good quality of life will be discouraged .
.

Not sure where you get that from. All the surveys I have seen show that healthcare professionals are relatively evenly split on this.

Dymaxion · 20/06/2025 21:52

Assisted dying is cheaper than good palliative care.

Good palliative care is all about assisting someone to die well.

Dying well often includes giving medications that have the effect of sedating the patient so that they are no longer able to voice their opinions, and therefore have to rely on others to advocate for them.

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:53

BetsyMacdonald · 20/06/2025 21:51

And here you have it . The ‘argument’ which leads to creep . Who is worthy to live ? Who is considered too expensive?
One minute we are considering offering euthanasia to people in the last stages of terminal illness , the next …

Welcome to the real world. It’s a bit shit, but unfortunately all we have.

somethinggoodisgonnahappen · 20/06/2025 21:55

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 20/06/2025 21:37

But assisted dying is suicide. The only difference is that you are given the drugs with which to commit suicide. You are still required to be able to take them independently, so you are effectively committing suicide. In most countries it is in fact called assisted suicide

Precisely, you know what you are taking & can control the circumstances and situation. Not the horrible vagaries of suicide where people are frankly desperate.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 20/06/2025 21:57

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:38

I'm not 'pleased' it is cheaper. I'm just fairly sure it will be and so is at least vaguely possible, unlike the fantasy that is good quality palliative care for everyone.

You're saying it's cheaper which is a sad inditement of how we value the sick and disabled. We could pass a bill debating and finding the money for better palliative care. Instead we've got a half arsed suicide bill without the funds. With the current state of the NHS, this is going to be a shitshow and if we get a government with people like Farage, it will be used as a cost cutting exercise. It's very myopic.

Noodledog · 20/06/2025 21:59

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:49

Everything depends on economics and always has! We live in a capitalist society. Pretending otherwise gets us nowhere.

I think for a society to work, there needs to be more than the purely economic.

But I honestly think this will be a disaster. The country already treats the disabled and elderly as a burden. This will just accelerate it. While it might save money in the short term, I think over the longer term it will result in financial loss as people feel no responsibility to a society that only sees them as people who cost money or don't - people avoiding taxes, people spending everything they can before they die. Because why not, if the state is only interested in them as long as they're not a financial burden?

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 22:00

MiloMinderbinder925 · 20/06/2025 21:57

You're saying it's cheaper which is a sad inditement of how we value the sick and disabled. We could pass a bill debating and finding the money for better palliative care. Instead we've got a half arsed suicide bill without the funds. With the current state of the NHS, this is going to be a shitshow and if we get a government with people like Farage, it will be used as a cost cutting exercise. It's very myopic.

We don’t need a bill for better palliative care - there is nothing legally preventing it already. What is preventing it is money and resources which we cannot just ‘find’ without taking it from somewhere else. Disability benefits maybe? Or free school meals? Or healthcare for those not already dying?

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 20/06/2025 22:00

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 21:53

Welcome to the real world. It’s a bit shit, but unfortunately all we have.

That’s all very well to say wile you’re not the one being singled out for death.

I don’t suppose you fit into a demographic where you would have been given a DNR during COVID?

Where your disability benefits are going to be cut?

Oh but wait, if reform come to power, which is unfortunately a very real possibility, then the equality act will be scrapped, so forget women’s rights.

And then if you ever become disabled you will be offered assisted dying because you’re not eligible for PIP.

OnlyDespairRemains · 20/06/2025 22:02

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 20/06/2025 22:00

That’s all very well to say wile you’re not the one being singled out for death.

I don’t suppose you fit into a demographic where you would have been given a DNR during COVID?

Where your disability benefits are going to be cut?

Oh but wait, if reform come to power, which is unfortunately a very real possibility, then the equality act will be scrapped, so forget women’s rights.

And then if you ever become disabled you will be offered assisted dying because you’re not eligible for PIP.

Doesn’t matter whether I’m singled out or not - doesn’t make it any less true I’m afraid.