Assisted Dying Bill passed by slim majority

[smallglassbottle]

https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-starmer-assisted-dying-trump-israel-iran-labour-12593360

My father died of a brutal cancer 2 years ago. Due to his geographic location, he fell in between the remit of 2 hospices so neither would offer at home care. Local care agency/district nurses were unreliable and lacking in compassion. GP out of their depth with prescribing. In the end, I got so angry about the lack of co-ordinated care that I emailed the Consultant at one of the hospices, cried down the phone to him and he arranged Dad some respite care there and then a place in a nursing home. Only due to his liver failing, he wasn't metabolising the end of life drugs. His last days are a horror that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I thank every single MP that voted for this today. My Dad's death is something that will never leave me.

and yet in the news article I posted upthread a lady was given the sedative but still had to be held down by her family members to be euthanised.
So not a peaceful end !

and the vulnerable of course which includes all elderly people!

This doesn't make any sense. Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I can't see how any medical establishment can be forced to provide services that aren't in their remit, especially ones that aren't actually state run. In the same way as no medical staff are forced to provide abortions services, I can't believe that doctors are going to be forced to take part in assisted dying. And surely that goes for whole organisations too.

Vote splits by MP:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd78nvn2r1yo.amp

Dianne Abbott, and many ex Labour independents (except John McDonnell) voted against.

All green MPs voted For.

For Reform, 30p Lee, Farage and The dodgy Essex one Against, Burka Pochin and Tice voted For.

Plaid Cymru voted 3 for 1 against. Scottish National Party MPs not voting on this, but Unionists did and all Against, even though this affects England and Wales

It was looked into by lawyers and they affirmed if a patient in one of the religious institutions wanted assisted dying they could not refuse it.
( tap to read )

What does that even mean though? That if someone in a religiously affiliated hospital asked for assisted dying then they'd have to let in someone who could help with that or help to transfer the patient to a facility where it was available?

The alternative to that is keeping terminally ill patients effectively prisoner in their facility with no access to the assisted dying provisions available to other patients in a similar situation. How would that be acceptable, just because their religion (but possibly not that of the patient) said so?

The article also notes that these hospices and care homes are receiving NHS funding. Surely the NHS shouldn't be funding facilities that don't adequately meet the needs of patients. That funding doesn't disappear if those hospices and care homes close because they won't offer those patients that want to choose assisted dying. The funding would be transferred to facilities that could offer the appropriate range of services.

Dementia is a unique situation and as has already been explained on the thread, this type of case won't be possible under the proposed law in the UK.

However, as someone who has dementia running in my family, I would much prefer that the wishes I expressed when I had capacity take priority over any natural urges I have when my mind is essentially gone. I don't think any of us who have experienced a loved one slowly decline in that way would want to suffer the same way ourselves.

Definitely. This happened to me when my son‘s cleft lip and palate was found at 20 weeks. You can abort up until birth for cleft lip and palate. I was told he probably had a life limiting syndrome (he doesn’t), to consider the impact on my other children and perhaps I should put this pregnancy behind me and try again. The doctor seemed exasperated when I also said I didn’t want the amnio. I should have complained but was in turmoil at the time. This was every 2 weeks as I then had additional scans until I said I wasn’t having an abortion and that was my final decision and could he stop asking. I mentioned this to my cleft nurse who said was is Drxxxx? You are not the first I’ve heard this from. I think it’s very naive to think no doctor would make patients feel it’s better to end a life.

We also saw outdated and frightening attitudes towards disability by some medics during the pandemic when resources were stretched and blanket DNRs were applied to people with learning disabilities without their knowledge.

I too have seen relatives die a painful death and I am actually not against the principle of assisted dying, however I cannot understand how anyone can support this without more safeguards in place.

In a country where spousal coercive control is only just being recognised more widely, I have to say that the assisted dying bill is unsafe. People don't recognise coercion when it is occurring right under their noses and many professionals and workers in health and social care wouldn't necessarily feel equipped to call it out.

I've lost two parents to illness, both of whom were in considerable pain despite the best round-the-clock pain management on offer. I cared for both of them for months as a live-in carer, taking time out from my own family. The guilt which one of my parents felt about this would definitely have been enough to make her request assisted dying were it available; she hated feeling dependent on another person. She would have felt like she was doing it for our sakes (mine and my DCs) as opposed to for the purpose of shortening her suffering, despite this being the furthest from my mind and feeling so grateful for each day we were able to share.

I've experienced both illness and coercive control and it is an absolute no-brainer to me that at a person's lowest -when you're exhausted, muddled, scared and riddled with pain- a person is so much more likely to be vulnerable to intended, imagined, or even misinterpreted pressure to end their own lives, however subtly such pressurewas exerted. It would be the easiest thing in the world.

My post related to sedatives not always working

No
It means the care homes and hospices will close.

A single case in Belgium that should not have happened does not mean the same thing happening here - not least because the law requires consent.

I have known several people with dementia and in the initial stages they have all had lucid moments where they know what is happening to them and they are terrified. Given a choice they would have opted out then, not wanting to get to the stage where their mind has gone and they cant consent. I hope one day the law will allow advance consent to be given.

I was not there at the very end but I have seen good palliative care in a hospice and also, many years ago, in a hospital. But the good care in a hospital was because pain relief sufficient to kill was given. In a more litigious society doctors can no longer risk that because even when the next of kin agree its in the patients best interests some busybody might feel they should report him to the police. The choice was between enough morphine to control pain and a shorter death or a longer time dying in agony. This law will just permit what good doctors used to do.

So you'd rather that some care homes and hospices are allowed to keep patients hostage and deny them the assisted dying available to others?

Yeah, probably best they close and the NHS funding they get be transferred to other facilities. Maybe new facilities could be set up that don't discriminate based on their own arbitrary beliefs. I think they might be able to find suitable premises from some recently closed ones.

@WarmthAndDepth A child should have no right to insist a parent stays alive and suffering because the child "wants more time with them". Utterly selfish. Coercive control operates both ways. People dying often need permission to go.

Personally I'd be happy to see religious exemption or exemption for anyone in a caring profession who feels they would prefer not to be involved.

Yes, I used to be a palliative care nurse and saw many people through their deaths. It can be done. The public are generally shocked by some things that are involved in the dying process, but each stage is managed carefully in good palliative care in order to minimise the distressing symptoms.

Of course there is poor or non existent palliative care which doesn't address symptom management or dignity and that's where things go wrong.

The NHS is currently putting people at huge risk and avoidable deaths are huge. Anyone who thinks there will be any meaningful safeguards is kidding themselves.

I would rather some care homes are places where life is valued and good quality palliative care is available, rather than suggesting that people take their own lives being seen as in any way caring.
If people want the option, they don't need to go to these homes.

Yes quite shocked that Unionist, Alliance, DUP, TUV and SDLP were allowed to vote. Claire Hannah SDLP didn't vote.

Why? They're MPs.

Do you not allow people to change their mind and then allow them to access assisted dying, either by bringing in specialists or facilitating their transfer? That's all they'd need to do.

One of the things that really stands out from the testimonies of those who have watched loved ones die in unrelieved pain, through starvation or with a complete lack of dignity, is their horror. No one expects things to get as bad as they clearly do, or we'd all be prepared for it and resigned to it. So it stands to reason that people will change their mind and should be in care facilities that allow for that possibility.

We shouldn't accept a two tier system that denies choice to patients at whatever point (subject to the limitations imposed by legislation).

Did any party mention the Bill in their manifesto? I don’t recall them doing so
MPs having a free vote is all very well but I’d rather they reflected the views of their constituents rather than their personal views

For those who want to die when they choose, suicide is always an option, surely?

And how do you suggest they do that @AnyoneWhoHasAHeart ?

The MP who has been promoting it worries me as she seems to be rushing it through and dismissing lots of concerns by other MPs. Dont think there are enough safeguards.

Thank goodness that at the moment medical staff can opt out of the process. I understand that in Canada and elsewhere this in NOT the case.

The lethal cocktail they use elsewhere (not sure what they will use in UK) does not seem a pleasant way to go for anyone.

Would you say the same about a severely disabled child? Or is it just the elderly without capacity who you think should be put down without their consent?