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Assisted Dying Bill passed by slim majority

493 replies

smallglassbottle · 20/06/2025 15:24

https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-starmer-assisted-dying-trump-israel-iran-labour-12593360

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
justasking111 · 21/06/2025 14:21

At the hospice I worked at two deaths within 24 hours. The police were called. Nursing staff were so cautious with morphine terrified not to overdose thus causing an enquiry, of course patients suffered. You can blame Shipman for that.

Lalgarh · 21/06/2025 14:33

Noodledog · 21/06/2025 12:30

Discussion on the death penalty: it must never be brought back, one innocent person being killed outweighs any other arguments

Discussion on assisted death: people being killed who don't want to be? Meh, no human action works out well 100% of the time. shrugs

I think Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson mentioned that the method of "despatch" being proposed for 💀 is one that's not used on prisoners facing execution BC of doubts over the time it takes to die when administered.

There was also an MP who's a vet who was speaking yesterday (re: "you wouldn't put a dog through this" discourse) who was mentioning the. Not Quick outcomes from some ops to put down pets

ruffler45 · 21/06/2025 14:44

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rgd4yrz3eo
Extract

No one, not even the doctor, knows how long it will take him to die after taking the lethal drugs. Dr Moore explains to me that, in his experience, death usually occurs between 30 minutes and two hours of ingestion, but on one occasion it took 17 hours.

A man sits in a reclining chair in shorts and T-shirt in his living room alongside his daughter, son and wife.

Assisted dying: California man invites BBC to witness his death

Wayne Hawkins believes terminally ill people should be able to die when they choose, but others in the state disagree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rgd4yrz3eo

Lalgarh · 21/06/2025 15:09

Is the unspoken thing here that these drugs are meant to trigger a cardiac arrest (instant stop) from which there is no resus

AliasGrace47 · 21/06/2025 17:12

ThePhantomoftheEcobubbleOpera · 21/06/2025 12:07

Dying in pain, as has been the case through the entire history of the human species, could continue long enough to put a bill through that demonstrates care and attention to the issues of political recklessness on a societal level and coercion at an individual level.

Throughout human history awful degenerative things like dementia were less common, mostly bc of reduced life expectancy. A lot of other awful things were common ofc. Being common doesn't alleviate the horror.

This is another reason that comparing the situation w grandparents etc to previous times doesn't work, bc it's only recently huge numbers of people are reaching the age to get this

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/06/2025 18:52

Noodledog · 21/06/2025 12:30

Discussion on the death penalty: it must never be brought back, one innocent person being killed outweighs any other arguments

Discussion on assisted death: people being killed who don't want to be? Meh, no human action works out well 100% of the time. shrugs

A well observed point, Noodledog

ruffler45 · 21/06/2025 19:21

Lalgarh · 21/06/2025 15:09

Is the unspoken thing here that these drugs are meant to trigger a cardiac arrest (instant stop) from which there is no resus

If that is the way the end happens, the "patient" just lies there waiting for the cardiac arrest to happen . And this is meant to be a good death? Hopefully a good dose of sedative kicks in before?

How does any "patient" self ingest when they do not have mobility to do so?

Someone please enlighten me/us..

Tiredofwhataboutery · 21/06/2025 20:35

justasking111 · 21/06/2025 14:21

At the hospice I worked at two deaths within 24 hours. The police were called. Nursing staff were so cautious with morphine terrified not to overdose thus causing an enquiry, of course patients suffered. You can blame Shipman for that.

I think that’s a good point, in order to be effective palliative care can cause death, involuntary euthanasia. There is an exemption for it in law but medics are incredibly cautious about being found liable so drivers are given only after excessive suffering, morphine is on ration.

If we can’t have effective palliative care without some form of euthsnasia is it not better thst it’s voluntary and regulated?

Viviennemary · 21/06/2025 20:40

I don't agree with assisted dying. But say a patient needs morphine for pain relief. And if the dose required for pain relief hastens death then that's fine. Because the drug is not being given to cause death but to provide pain relief. It's all to do with ethics I suppose.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 21/06/2025 21:33

Viviennemary · 21/06/2025 20:40

I don't agree with assisted dying. But say a patient needs morphine for pain relief. And if the dose required for pain relief hastens death then that's fine. Because the drug is not being given to cause death but to provide pain relief. It's all to do with ethics I suppose.

I think it used to be more common to give fatal doses. If you can’t take the pain from the patient, then you take the patient from the pain. Medics are much more circumspect these days. I do wonder if medics behaved as they did in the 90s if we’d be having this debate atall. Involuntary euthanasia rates would be higher, relatives would be less scarred as people wouldn’t be suffering the way they currently do.

justasking111 · 21/06/2025 22:30

Friends wife died at home. He rang the nurses one evening because she was in such pain. He'd given her morphine. They said give as much as she needs. She slipped away half an hour later. He said he'd never know if it had been too much but she died peacefully.

anyolddinosaur · 22/06/2025 14:10

Your friend who gave his wife morphine could be investigated by the police if anyone decided, say because of their religious belief, to complain.

Oregon pioneered assisted suicide 25 years ago. The option is increasingly taken up - but partly because they allow people from states where no such option exists. Still quite a few people apply and then opt not to go through with it. The peace of mind they get from knowing they have the option means they can tolerate living longer. I'd class that as working well.

Yes you tend to get changes in the law as people realise that their fears were exaggerated. Some place have maybe gone too far but not all.

Opponents of this bill always resort to insult and exaggeration. No safeguards would ever be enough for them.

I'm potentially one of the poor frail elderly would could be coerced - I'd far more concerned about being coerced into staying longer than I want or being denied a choice because I become too ill to take drugs myself. Some people are determined that others should suffer.

justasking111 · 22/06/2025 14:56

anyolddinosaur · 22/06/2025 14:10

Your friend who gave his wife morphine could be investigated by the police if anyone decided, say because of their religious belief, to complain.

Oregon pioneered assisted suicide 25 years ago. The option is increasingly taken up - but partly because they allow people from states where no such option exists. Still quite a few people apply and then opt not to go through with it. The peace of mind they get from knowing they have the option means they can tolerate living longer. I'd class that as working well.

Yes you tend to get changes in the law as people realise that their fears were exaggerated. Some place have maybe gone too far but not all.

Opponents of this bill always resort to insult and exaggeration. No safeguards would ever be enough for them.

I'm potentially one of the poor frail elderly would could be coerced - I'd far more concerned about being coerced into staying longer than I want or being denied a choice because I become too ill to take drugs myself. Some people are determined that others should suffer.

My friend was advised by a well known charity. Had bottles of morphine in the home it was over 20 years ago now. He wasn't a doctor or a Harold Shipman.

smallglassbottle · 22/06/2025 21:54

CurrentHun · 22/06/2025 20:20

Thank you for making this important point Wes Streeting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8zn66k8rdo

So there is no money for assisted dying or palliative care?

Nice

OP posts:
Slatterndisgrace · 22/06/2025 22:03

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 20/06/2025 15:50

There are literally 0 safeguards.

If the bill passes it will essentially be each person for himself. And then it will only be a matter of time before it’s extended to mental illness/disability/the murder of dementia patients such as happens in the Netherlands and Belgium.

I understand why someone would want it in certain circumstances, but that doesn’t make it ok.

For every one person who legitimately accesses the service, there will be thousands who feel coerced/pressured/obligated to kill themselves or have themselves killed.

There is not a single country where this has worked out well. And if you do some reading up on assisted dying, it is rarely the peaceful end that people seem to think it is.

Can you direct me to the information regarding it not being a peaceful end please Anyone?

Slatterndisgrace · 22/06/2025 22:12

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 21/06/2025 12:07

Can someone explain the by proxy element.
As I understand it the 'ill' person must make two signed declarations - but if they are unable to sign that declaration someone can sign on their behalf?
How will that work in practice and what would be the safeguards here to prevent a family member simply signing a declaration to have you killed.

What if there is no family to sign?

shingleinmyshoe · 22/06/2025 23:44

CurrentHun · 22/06/2025 20:20

Thank you for making this important point Wes Streeting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8zn66k8rdo

No money for palliative care, increases the need for assisted dying!!!!

I can see how that might be awkward for the Health Secretary, but I'm on the side of the people who want, and need, to minimise their own suffering in their final 6 months.

My mum did get palliative care, in a hospice, but it was conditional on her only having 2 weeks to live after finally giving up.on her leukemia treatment. The hospice staff were lovely, and helped to ease the pain, but I will never forget the panic in her eyes in her final moments when she was unable to breath and they wouldn't give her the oxygen she asked for. It wasn't the peaceful end she would have liked. 😞

CurrentHun · 23/06/2025 07:55

CurrentHun · 22/06/2025 20:20

Thank you for making this important point Wes Streeting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8zn66k8rdo

Streeting is saying that there is already not enough money for palliative care. So that is a terrible situation for everyone who needs that care to relieve their pain and distress - ie all of us one day. Societally, clearly that says a lot about us, that by and large ‘we’ (not all of us, but enough of us) already see sick and disabled people ie seen as having very little value.

That lack of money for palliative care is what the wealthier ‘I’ll just buzz off to Switzerland’ type of campaigners who (completely understandably) wish to have a death with dignity themselves, should be putting their energy behind. To secure that peaceful end for everyone who is dying, even the least wealthy and the most vulnerable in society, would be a proud achievement.

It’s especially scary when even the Health Minister with responsibility for starting up this service of assisted dying, says it’s too expensive to do properly in the UK.

There’s not really any high enough safeguards that could be applied to do assisted deaths safely in the UK. Because in reality in our social context, ill and disabled people are seen as burdens, our Labour government is actively trying to cut their already meagre benefits. In that situation of poverty illness and disability, people are vulnerable. It will become even easier to manipulate and coerce someone into asking for an assisted death when they wouldn’t otherwise want that. So to my mind, assisted deaths shouldn’t be offered. It is not a safe context for us as a society to do so socially (and financially either)

And obviously, offering an expensive new programme of assisted death at all (..just like offering anything else extra or new..) on the NHS, then takes away from NHS care pot as a whole. That needs to be justified very carefully and evidenced.

Normally, NICE does a review to see if the new thing would be safe to offer on the NHS. NiICE assesses objectively for whether the new treatment or service is, effective for what it’s trying to treat, and cost effective for the NHS to provide. NICE often ends up recommending that the NHS does not provide expensive, but safe and effective, drugs that people want to see on the NHS, on that basis. Have they had a look at assisted dying techniques and the necessary safeguards yet? (No..but why not?)

There seems to be massive disconnect between the campaigners and the theoretical attraction of giving more choice at the end of life, and the reality of what can ever be provided. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge how the existence of this offer will affect others by worsening services for everyone else. It clearly provides a new tool for abuse of the most vulnerable people without the legal consequences for that abuse that an abuser otherwise get. because you manipulate or coerce the ill person into thinking or saying it’s actually their choice. Then the state takes over to make their death happen.

I just don’t see how benefits of this can outweigh the dangers. Death in the UK is not going to be good and easy with assisted death, either. People are imagining that we will have a perfect system. There will be all the usual abuses and postcode lotteries we have now. We don’t have a safe and effective service for palliative care all over the country and we won’t for assisted dying either. The Health Secretary is telling us this extremely openly and bluntly. It feels like some people are thinking theoretically and not about the practical realities of how very badly this will have to be done if it’s put into practice. And how damaging that will be for the choices for other people who are even more vulnerable than they are, as they come closer to dying.

shingleinmyshoe · 23/06/2025 10:17

@CurrentHun "There’s not really any high enough safeguards that could be applied to do assisted deaths safely in the UK. Because in reality in our social context, ill and disabled people are seen as burdens"

The assisted dying bill is not for "sick and disabled people" generally. It is only for terminally ill people who have formally been given 6 months to live. That is the only safeguard needed in my view - once you know you're on the way out you should have the right to do it at a time of your choosing.

Yes, there may be a few of those people who feel coerced into it, but the vast majority won't. There does need to be a way for those who feel they are being pressurised to speak out, but that is not difficult to provide.

DrPrunesqualer · 23/06/2025 11:11

smallglassbottle · 22/06/2025 21:54

So there is no money for assisted dying or palliative care?

Nice

It seems our Government have forgot what the nhs is for.
Its not just to bring people back to health but also to reduce pain and suffering at all stages in our lives.
With ‘ no money for palliative care’ it seems once you can’t be cured you are abandoned

Assisted Dying Bill passed by slim majority
CorneliaCupp · 23/06/2025 11:18

There’s not really any high enough safeguards that could be applied to do assisted deaths safely in the UK. Because in reality in our social context, ill and disabled people are seen as burdens, our Labour government is actively trying to cut their already meagre benefits. In that situation of poverty illness and disability, people are vulnerable. It will become even easier to manipulate and coerce someone into asking for an assisted death when they wouldn’t otherwise want that. So to my mind, assisted deaths shouldn’t be offered. It is not a safe context for us as a society to do so socially (and financially either)

Completely agree. Great post.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2025 12:00

there may be a few of those people who feel coerced into it, but the vast majority won't

That's back with the capital punishment point which was made upthread isn't it?
As in "we can't possibly bring it back if there's a chhance just one innocent person could be killed" as opposed to "Oh it'll only be a tiny minority ... shrug" when it comes to this current bill

And obviously we all know that the government won't want to spend money on this - after all why bother when the dead won't be coming back to complain

shingleinmyshoe · 23/06/2025 12:47

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2025 12:00

there may be a few of those people who feel coerced into it, but the vast majority won't

That's back with the capital punishment point which was made upthread isn't it?
As in "we can't possibly bring it back if there's a chhance just one innocent person could be killed" as opposed to "Oh it'll only be a tiny minority ... shrug" when it comes to this current bill

And obviously we all know that the government won't want to spend money on this - after all why bother when the dead won't be coming back to complain

Those two arguments aren't analogous at all. If someone on death row says "I'm innocent" they will be executed anyway. In contrast, if someone who is terminally ill says "I'm being pressurised into assisted dying by my uncaring relatives" they will be listened to.

The Health Secretary's is worried that they might instead say "I'm being pressurised into assisted dying by poorly funded care" so that the finger points at him rather than at the relatives. He doesn't want that on his conscience. It's a very selfish position to take.

CurrentHun · 23/06/2025 18:40

shingleinmyshoe · 23/06/2025 10:17

@CurrentHun "There’s not really any high enough safeguards that could be applied to do assisted deaths safely in the UK. Because in reality in our social context, ill and disabled people are seen as burdens"

The assisted dying bill is not for "sick and disabled people" generally. It is only for terminally ill people who have formally been given 6 months to live. That is the only safeguard needed in my view - once you know you're on the way out you should have the right to do it at a time of your choosing.

Yes, there may be a few of those people who feel coerced into it, but the vast majority won't. There does need to be a way for those who feel they are being pressurised to speak out, but that is not difficult to provide.

Please do tell us your ideas for how the coerced will be ‘easily’ able to be identified and helped during this process of ensuring their own death. All the while it seems like fewer and fewer safeguards are being included to the process at each stage it is being debated. First there was a judge required, then a panel with social workers. I dread to think what will be provided next, once the massive financial costs and difficult practicalities of staffing and providing assisted dying on the NHS are more fully understood?

This lack of understanding and concern about coercion in assisted dying is appalling. 2-3 women a week are killed due to domestic violence in the UK. It’s so common that it doesn’t even make the news.
Their deaths attest to the fact that int the UK most of us including the professionals we look to protect us, have an absolutely appalling grasp of what domestic coercion and abuse looks like and how to stop it safely. Plus the abuse of disabled and elderly people- it’s not just women. It’s incredibly common.

Now with this assisted dying proposal Parliament seems to be in effect handing over the tools for abuse to the abusers, within a process whereby the abusers can pretty much crack on knowing that the person will die and they won’t face any legal consequences for making the person feel they have to agree to death. It’s absolutely chilling.