Why do our kids hate secondary school?

[noblegiraffe]

Together with the news from PISA that our teens are the unhappiest in Europe, new research shows that engagement and enjoyment of school falls off a cliff once kids leave primary and start secondary.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/revealed-the-school-pupils-who-disengage-during-year-7-dip/

https://www.thedeveloperlive.co.uk/opinion/opinion/why-do-uk-teens-have-among-the-lowest-life-satisfaction-in-the-oecd

"It found that while engagement declines through school “in almost every country”, the magnitude “is more pronounced in England”, suggesting disengagement is not just a symptom of age “but something atypical” that is happening in England.

There has been lots and lots of discussion about the impact that social media is having on teen mental health - what about the impact of having to go to secondary schools that they clearly don't like?

I think this too. Many kids get a phone for yesr 7.

First, teachers are not entertainers. I/we are not paid clowns to dance for the edutainment of pupils.

Secondly, In many subjects, including practical ones, there will always be an element of "boring" curriculum.

Sometimes the basics are boring and need repetition to be able to do the more interesting stuff.

But that's the same in other countries, and the dislike of school is worse here than other countries.

I think, especially with teenagers, there's always going to be an element of finding it boring and questioning will I need that in the real world.

I don't think secondary school being awful is a new thing. It's 40 years since I was at secondary school and I'd forgotten how awful it was until we had to do secondary school visits for our own children then it all came flooding back. I was a good student and passed all my o levels. God only knows how bad it is if you're not academic.

Our youngest is doing her gcses then we're done with the shit show that is secondary education.

I honestly believe the 5 years of secondary education is the worst time of your life. It's the evil mix of hormones, many awful people you have little in common with and no real agency over your own life.

In other countries teaching is a respected profession.

In England it has been undermined by years of bad press in the MSM, and government after government deriding and underfunding the profession to the extent that nobody wants to do it anymore.

Absolutely this! At my DCs' school there was a period when you were automatically put in isolation for the whole day if you forgot your planner. Yes, for a first offence. Yes, even if you had a track record of impeccable behaviour. The teachers also very actively went looking for uniform infringements, particularly among the girls. For example, there was a rule that teachers had to be able to pinch at least an inch of cloth around your trousers, otherwise they were deemed too tight and a uniform infringement. The girls had to line up to have their trousers pinched! The rule was black shoes. My DD's friend wore shoes that any random person in the street would have described as black shoes, but she was pulled up for the fact that they had a tiny amount of white stitching on them. So obsessed were some of the teachers with finding fault that a girl who was told to go and wash off her fake tan had to explain that she wasn't wearing fake tan and that her skin was naturally that colour. I could go on with more examples, but you've probably got the gist!

DD did very well academically and had a very nice set of friends at secondary school. But her memories of school are of an anxious time with teachers very actively looking to accuse the girls of rule breaches. It wasn't all the teachers, but the senior leadership team were happy for that to be the prevailing culture. My son attended the same school and had a much happier time. The nit-picking over appearance was directed far more at the girls (by female members of staff).

My kids were all bright, rule-following, engaged and creative youngsters. They went to a supposed ‘outstanding’ secondary.

They hated:

• The fear of peer pressure and bullying,
• fear of shouty frazzled teachers,
• fear of violence,
• fear of parents finding out and making things much worse,
• All work, testing and no fun,
• The school always favouring and giving opportunities to either the worst pupils or the few top ones.

All three left hating secondary and none of them wanted to continue in education. It completely knocked the stuffing out of them. I dread to think how some less resilient pupils might’ve coped.

I’m dreading my kid going to secondary. It was the worst years of my life (in the 90s) and I think it’s got worse. I would make them smaller so they can be a real community where every student is known and get rid of high stakes testing.

I went to a 3 tier middle and upper schools in the late 70s, early 80s. In the 70s they built a purpose built block to accommodate it. We had modern art and science rooms, open plan classes with class bays for 'tutorials' . I loved it!
We gradually switched from one classroom with teacher to subject teachers over the time there. We switched at 14, going into the '3rd yr' at upper school, a big comprehensive. 400+in my year group. There were battles over uniform but nothing like my DGC are having to put up with.
I much preferred it to 2 tier.
Independent schools are often based on 3 tier. Pre-prep , prep and senior.

More just to show the difference in then and now.

But a school that I was at was asked to increase its PAN for a bulge year.
It was sold to the school that if they accepted the increase the LEA would pay for two new classrooms to be built and supplied.

The school ended up with a double portacabin, but the LEA then refused to stock the classrooms as the price was to expensive.

Or when schools could only purchase supplies and contractors that where approved and licensed and often run by mates of those in charge.

Endless testing, assessments & ‘quizzes’, PowerPoints & few practical or hands on learning lessons where kids are ‘led’ to the answer and with little need to free think or come up with an answer. Too much being wrapped in cotton wool I primary school along with endless uniform rules and not being g allowed to run or mess about in break time. I dare not add the external societal issues or social media.

The state school where we were offered a place had 1700 pupils, violence and bullying were common, teachers are stressed, swamped with ludicrous paperwork and seldom stayed for long. They didn't have a hope of knowing their pupils. The curriculum is utterly joyless. The school couldn't even offer a french teacher for years 7-9. PE was taught by someone who had no qualifications in PE. Standards were generally dire.

My ds is happy at school but he's on a scholarship at a small independent where he doesn't get bullied for liking maths & phyics, or wanting to read at lunchtimes. Where mobile phones aren't allowed during school hours. Where the teachers stay for decades and are consistent and know their pupils well. Where music and art are normal every day activities.

As a single mum I've spent every last penny from the last 8 years and my savings ensuring he is at a school he enjoys.

The things that frighten my ds are the thought of £60,000 student debt and all the doom and gloom this govt spouts. DCs need optimism and be able to see a future. With this govt, they can't. I wish Reeve & Starmer would shut up, stop spooking the money markets, stop talking the UK down.

My ds will have more opportunity than I did. I just need to help him see that.

Agree with all of this. Also, no-one looks at the curriculum in terms of what an individual pupil encounters in a typical school day. Year nine in particular is awful: start the day with an hour on knife crime in PHSE; straight over to a session on the holocaust in History; quick break (eat something or queue for the loo?); then one of the many depressing set books in English… No wonder so many are anxious and sad

This.

Some of the texts they read in English are the most depressing things ever written. And the focus on the holocaust - honestly - how to depress an entire generation in one move? Or endless visiting of the WWI war graves in France & Belgium.

In my 6th form (donkey's years ago) between A'level lessons we studied the history of architecture. The sheer joy of Brunel, through to the latest architecture in the City of London as a bit of light relief. In lower sixth, we learned & sang Handel's Messiah for fun.

We were a lot more cheerful.

My ds will have more opportunity than I did. I just need to help him see that.

I think a lot of young people don't see this. I'm well educated with a decent job but the biggest impact on my life & future security was a large deposit to buy a house in London where I am from. My dc will need & have that help too, I think opportunity is harder.

It’s designed for one style of learning with little flexibility. The focus is mostly on academics with pressure and punishment being the methods to get results. Ridiculous rules and punishments. Teens in packs can be awful bullies. Pressure to fit in , hormones.

The worst part of my childhood was year 9-11.

Schools are overcrowded and underfunded. It's become a bit law of the jungle in some schools due to difficulties managing behaviour. Teachers are tired, it takes a superhuman amount of energy to get through the day. They don't have the bandwidth to properly support the increasing amount of social and emotional needs kids present with. Other sources of support in the wider community are non existent.

There's a huge focus on performance in academic written tests. The growth mindset theory popular a while back introduced the idea that you could improve by working harder but the flip side of this is if you're not achieving A grades it's because you haven't worked hard enough.

The success criteria dictated by schools both socially and academically are so narrow kids are set up to fail, so disengage early as a form of self protection.

Curriculum.
Schools are designed for bight, academic children. A one - size fits all approach. It’s so wrong. I would like to see different types of schools. There was a half arsed attempts at this 20 years ago but it wasn’t done properly.
Add in petty rules about uniform, buildings crumbling to bits, poor quality teaching ( entrance requirements to the profession are a lot lower than they used to be) and on-line bullying- it’s no surprise so many are unhappy.

Endless visiting of the graves? Surely one visit of about 4 days during their entire school career.
My Dc found the war graves visit profoundly moving and as a parent I think it’s somewhere everyone should go and see. Especially politicians.

at the secondary I worked at, pupils were given very little respect by many staff, and the dog eat dog environment among the kids, meant many were less feeling awful. I hated it, and found it a very bizarre, weirdly authoritarian environment. I'm not surprised kids disengage and hate it.

Interested by those who say the focus is on academics. I feel my DC has a balanced timetable, but would be interested to see what a UK Yr 7 timetable is like:
My yr7 DC has
Mon: 8 lessons
Tues: 8 lessons
Wed: 5 lessons
Thurs: alternates 5 or 7
Fri: 7 lessons

lessons per week
Main language : 4
1st foreign language: 3
2nd foreign language: 3
Maths: 5
Science: 3
History&Geography: 3
sport: 3
Ethics & Religion: 2
Design/Technology: 2
Art: 2
music : 2
Business, careers and household: 1
IT: 2 every other week

I didn’t like secondary school, I went to a grammar and did fine so it wasn’t the curriculum or the uniform etc. it was purely the behaviour of other kids, bullying etc, it was really stressful.

I just don’t think kids are that sensitive, I remember being morbidly fascinated with the holocaust. It was awful, I remember a school trip to hear a holocaust survivor speaking, I cried throughout most of that but I still didn’t dwell on it endlessly.

However it didn’t give me depression or anxiety. The fucking feral kids in my school did.