Public school, middle class, socialism. Things that mean something different to Americans

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Pants/trousers, fanny and several other words have a different meaning in the US to the UK. But also middle class, public school and socialism are misunderstood by Americans I think when British people use these terms.

US posters what do these terms mean to you?

I don’t think they misunderstand them, they just mean differently in a US context.

That’s what I mean. What do US people think we are talking about when we say middle class or public school etc. do they actually realise they mean something different in the UK? Maybe MN US posters do maybe not all do but the average person in the US I suspect wouldn’t. So maybe this forum is the wrong place to ask!!!

not American, strictly speaking, but there for 15 years now.

middle class: not rich and not poor. Very elastic term. Often subdivided. The British working class is divided here. As a very broad rule it's just hard to equate classes. Americans define it by a combination of money and education.

public school: state school. This one is easy. Americans with any familiarity with British culture know the difference.

socialism: if you're a conservative, it's anything you don't like. If you're liberal to progressive it often just means social democracy a la Scandinavia, like Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a socialist. Proper socialism is the province of half a dozen lonely leftists.

But does it matter much? I’m Irish but lived in the UK for 20 years plus, and there are lots of words that mean different things in the two countries and might give rise to minor misunderstandings.

The average person in North America knows what middle class means. We just are not so obsessed with classes and putting people in boxes. We would also probably say white collar jobs or blue collared jobs for working class.

The country doesn’t have a monarchy (after obviously leaving one) so everyone came over for a better life and made their way. There isn’t historical class or hierarchy. All men are created equal remember (and yes I understand women and minorities were left out but for the point of classes it applies).

We have different words but know what they mean . If someone said is there a trash can around wouldnt you know what that means?

There is an obsession at times over here about classes and boxes. Also understand that in Canada for example there is a much larger ‘middle class’. Yes there are rich and poor but it is also the country in the western world with the highest amount of people with degrees (not that that is always a measure but can allow for social movement). We don’t segregate council housing and live together. You go to your local school in catchment no fighting for places etc.

You aren’t comparing like for like. It’s completely different and yes I made the mistake to believe speaking English and coming from a commonwealth country would mean the same but culturally it is night and day:

Americans use middle class when we might more commonly say working class. This is not apparent to them at all - it's really interesting. Even if you tell them they don't see it.

My favourite concealed difference is the word "quite". For Americans it means "very" instead of "almost". The most vivid illustration for me of this is that Walgreens (like Boots) do an own brand toothbrush called "Quite Clean" 😂. Can you imagine buying quite clean toothbrushes?

Oh not directed at the PP! Sorry that looks like I'm talking about you and not to you, Calmdownpeople - I just didn't see your comment!

I'm thinking about it, and you really just can't equate class. It's not quite true that North Americans (Canadians are similar in thinking but now have more social mobility) don't care but it's thought of so differently that it's very difficult to draw parallels.

So for example, a plumber or electrician who does well and can afford to buy a house, 2 cars, etc will think of himself as "middle class" because he has those economic markers, but he will also identify with having a blue-collar job. He might make as much or more than his neighbour with a degree, and they'll both say they're middle class, but they will not be the same.

There isn't the same identity division between middle and working class. American society sets up middle class and its markers as the aspirational goal. Everyone wants to be middle class, but it's so big it doesn't mean anything. You need to get much more specific. Once you're financially stable you call yourself middle class, and you think of yourself that way until you get to a point where you can't deny you're wealthy. You can make hundreds of thousands a year but say you're just "upper middle class."

i would also add “excited”. In the U.K. it means jumping up and down with a balloon. In the US it means looking forward to or pleased. It’s nowhere near as strong.

Yes, ‘quite’ is interesting. And yes, my sense is that ‘middle class’ incorporates a wider economic range in the US. The Simpson, for instance, were regarded as a MC Everyfamily when the series started in 1989, and there’s a fair bit of debate about their class status since.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/life-simpsons-no-longer-attainable/617499/

Does it matter? Depends on the circumstances I guess. I was pondering this whilst having my shower mic as many threads appear to be.
‘Why do people say never to wear blue and black together’
’when did brown shoes with dark suits become a thing’
‘why do people police other peoples choice of threads’

you know. That kind of thing

I think personally that few Americans would equate middle class as potentially being someone with a PhD living in a £4million house working in an investment bank with 3 dc at private schools
I think they would call this upper class. Whereas in the UK you aren’t really UC unless you are born into it and you may not have much in the way of liquid assets

American here, though have lived in the UK most of my adult life. There are lots of words that have different meanings across the two cultures. I often have to stop and try to think of the American word for something to translate when talking to my fellow Americans.

The thing about class in America is there is a much more fervent belief in social mobility. Americans are actually much more obsessed with social class than they would admit, but as a marker of success, not social position. There is a strong belief that if you work hard enough, you will move up the ladder in your lifetime. It’s why you see so many poor and working class Americans aligning themselves with Trump and a billionaire class that is frankly exploiting them (it’s not the only reason!). It’s because they believe that if someone just removes the obstacles in their way (DEI, reopening the mines and the factories, etc), they too will move up the ladder to a higher class.

Middle class is the lowest acceptable class on the latter. There is little pride in being working class in America, not like here. It’s not a marker of identity or who your family is. It’s a source of shame. You or your parents haven’t worked hard enough. So (nearly) everyone claims to be middle class because they see themselves as aspirational. The exceptions obviously are the wealthy who have their own class divisions and the poor and economic underclasses, the ones who are almost outside of the economy, transient, have never worked, etc.

No normal working person wants to admit they are a failure or haven’t been successful, so they consider themselves middle class. Even though by classical demographic standards, we wouldn’t consider them as having typical markers of being middle class, like home ownership, white collar jobs, etc.

The public school thing in the U.K. drove me bonkers. How can something so very clearly private and exclusive be “public”? Public libraries are for everyone, public parks and so on.

But public schools are private, elite institutions normal people can’t access.

It is a completely stupid name. I think it’s to do with historically not being church schools, but it’s still blatantly misleading now.

It’s interesting you say this. I think most Americans actually would class this person as middle class.

Tbf, I have a PhD, live in a very nice house (not £4 mil but far nicer than any of my American friends), my kids don’t go to private school, but I did. Actually, I went to a sister school of the Trump kids and knew them in school (they were as ick back then as now). I was solidly middle class by American standards then and now.

We don’t have the concept of ‘upper class’ in America. We would have new money rich and old money rich. They have similar social connotations as here. But rich is properly rich. Not just nice house and private school. Lots of Americans go to private school. New money rich is much more private jets, multiple houses, a yacht, than just education and private school.

Interesting thread!

@mindutopia I found your post fascinating. Do you think there are no instances of working class status being a source of cultural and ancestral pride in the US?

For example I think of musicians, from the Beatles to Pulp to Bowie to Adele who are firmly and proudly working class, celebrated for it, and even gain credibility for it. With no aspiration to move up the social ladder which would be seen as try-hard, disingenuous and even a betrayal of their roots and identity. Do you have US equivalents? Springsteen?

There is definitely blue collar pride, but it would not be put in the same class terms.

I would scoff at someone who worked in finance, has a £4M house, and has their children in private school (and I'm presuming we don't mean parish catholic, which has very different connotations) trying to get away with calling themselves middle class. Most Americans of my experience would, as they say, give them the side eye for it.

You are correct that it’s historic and public was to indicate anyone from any religion. Old attend and any family as long as certain conditions were met unlike other schools of the time in which you had to be Jesuit or catholic etc and from certain families

there are only 9 genuine public schools. Other older private schools are sometimes referred to as public schools but they are really independent or private schools.

A lot of things made so much sense to me when I finally worked out the different meanings of quite!

Another example : if you're a republican in the UK it means you don't believe there should be a monarchy, not that you're a MAGA Trump voter. Ironically, lots of anti monarchists are probably more likely to be far left than far right.

And, tbh, the definitions of "right" and "left" on the political spectrum. What we think of as central/right parties like the convervatives would probably be closer aligned to the democrats in the US.

Tbh I'm not convinced most people in the UK know the difference between public/private schools - i think if you asked most people they'd assume you were just using an alternative word for state rather than denoting two different types of fee paying schools.

Two countries, divided by a common language.

Public school is state school in the US - elementary, middle, or high school. Catchment (school district residence) is usually strictly scrutinized and enforced. Attendance is free - usually with a registration fee but can be waived. Schools are organised in Districts, and are funded via property taxes raised within each District along with some state and federal funding. Religion classes are never taught in public schools apart from iirc Oklahoma.

Parochial school means an RC elementary school, often with students from kindergarten to 8th grade, so encompassing the middle school grades and elementary grades. All schools that are not public schools are fee paying. Lutherans and Jews also run schools, and in some parts of the country other denominations too, often more conservative Christian schools. Students in religious run schools usually study their own religion, or theology.

Middle class is an identity rather than something you can pin down, as is 'blue collar'. It's not really something defined by income, and it certainly isn't defined by ancestry or any of the markers familiar to Brits. Middle class people don't worry about how their children's names will be received - except it's not done to use names likely to be heavily identified with poor African Americans, a rule observed by middle class African Americans too. This includes some names that are considered uber MC in the UK - Octavia for instance. Middle class is an identity with a set of values - working hard, making sure your kids do their best in school - rather than speaking with any particular accent or home buying (though very few people living in public housing would ever identify as MC).
Identity is overall more a case of having a soft spot for your ethnic origins in the US than anything class based.

Socialism - Americans are still living in the Cold War and have a Better Dead Than Red philosophy. They generally do not understand the terms Socialism and Communism. The idea of political parties called Christian Socialists or identifying with the ideals of Christian Socialists blows many a mind.

At the same time as Sarah Palin was scaremongering about 'death panels', health insurance companies were routinely denying claims for treatment of sick people. The pro business party fails to see the cost to American business of providing health insurance for employees (yes, this partly comes from gross income of employees, but companies pay to administer health insurance plans) and the benefits in terms of employee health of single payer free at point of service medical care. There are lots of other blind spots.

Nope, not upper class. That term really has no meaning in the US. 'Rich' has meaning. 'Poor' has meaning. All points in between don't really refer to income.

None of the markers you mention mean anything other than comfortably off in financial terms. This is a country where there are many billionaires after all.

I live in an area where quite a lot of people live in houses valued over $1m, and make a lot of money. The public schools here are far better equipped, with lavish facilities and annual operating budgets approaching $100 million.

Most people unless motivated by religious feeling or a preference for a single sex girls' school send their kids to the public schools. The ability to pay for a private school isn't a marker of anything other than 'having middle class/ religious leanings'.

Very comfortably off people don't tend to splash money either. The only people you see with brand names all over their handbags or ostentatious consumerism tend to be people who could be called the less well educated.

And to add to my post - private schools are entirely funded by people who go there. Facilities tend not to be anywhere near as lavish as public school facilities. (Probably with a few exceptions).

I think there definitely are good examples of blue collar pride. I live in a city whose tag line is The City That Works - meaning both an efficient and well run city and also a nod to the traditional blue collar culture of the city.

There are certain ethnic groups that take great pride in their blue collar reputation and heritage - mainly Irish, Poles/ other central Europeans, and Greeks/Italians - and don't think twice about talking of ancestors who labored in the stockyards or building sites or the police force or fire departments. Proud union members.

They're proud of their success too, and the fact that subsequent generations became teachers or doctors or nurses or lawyers. Blue collar just means hard working and taking pride in your hard work, valuing the slog. It doesn't have the lower class connotations of working class in the UK.

Willingness and ability to put in the work to make something solid out of your life is the value that Americans are proudest of.

The one that catches my American family out is college/ university.
me: dd is finished with school now and starting college in September.
American family: but she’s only 16? They let kids finish school and go to college at 16?
Me: well, we call it college but it’s not university
American family: ????