Why aren't "we" allowed.tomsuggest peole need to take some responsibility for their own health?

[Holidayfix]

Another one on the benefits issue.

My position is I'm surprised by these cuts and I absolutely support a benefits safety net, and where people have been unfortunately enough to have poor health dealt to them I feel it's absolutley necessary that "we" support them.

However, like it or not, a lot of what affliction people, mentally and physically, in the modern world is lifestyle related and there are very many things that many people could do to help themselves.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but why is it unacceptable to suggest that people could help themselves by doing the recommended things that support.mental and physical health?

I think that the leisure centres and bus passes are a great idea. Preventative measures take a lot of time though before seeing real benefits in terms of health data, and as we keep changing governments every four years I don’t think that politicians have enough of an appetite for long-term preventative approaches. I think than the Sure start centres were a great start and it’s a shame that they have gone.

I think you have to be in a pretty good place already to engage with the NHS or government campaigns.

If just making it through the day is a huge struggle, you haven’t got the bandwidth.

They do, but in a 5 minute appointment, they often don’t get a true understanding of the persons difficulties. I have a relative with OCD and depression. They read lots, tried lots of self help techniques and eventually seen their GP. They were prescribed medication which doesn’t really help other than making them sleepy, The GP tells them to ‘eat well and get outside’ despite my relative having contamination issues with food and the outside world and feeling so depressed that their appetite is low. They’re on a waiting list again for CBT having had some years ago but the waiting list is long. When you’re in the depths of bad mental health, putting even the basics into practice can be too overwhelming. GPs and the rest of the NHS just doesn’t have the resources to help.

Yes, exactly this.

@Hungryhungryrhino , nope! I’ve had some very significant mental health issues and the OPs suggestions are backed by science and prescribed by doctors. I exercise at home, you can follow classes at no cost at all. Outside is just beyond your front door and advice on eating healthily is readily available and cheap to follow.
Mental health illness is not a modern invention but back in the day when you couldn’t decide to loll around at home at the expense of the hard working taxpayers people just had to get on with it. The thing is the very act of getting on with it is extremely healing. Those with the most severe mental illness would really have suffered in those days and I hope that no one wants a return to that. The fact remains that the vast majority of people with mental health issues could help themselves enormously but many choose not to.

From an obesity perspective, this makes for interesting reading: Why are Brits the fattest in Western Europe? - BBC Food

I've always notice a massive disconnect between the way the Italians, French and Spanish treat mealtimes when compared to the British - we snack SO much. Having lived with increasing obesity and food addiction for most of my adult life, it's taken me until my early 50s to get a handle on it - with absolutely ZERO assistance from any statutory healthcare professionals or providers - mainly because there was no help to be had. I don't think I ever believed my issues to be anyone else's fault and I always knew I'd have to face up to them eventually - after years and years of making excuses not to make better choices or get off my arse and start burning some calories.

I live in an area with a huge prevalence of obesity and chronic, long-term ill health - the massive number of obese and/or infirm people going around on mobility scooters is a local joke. People call a walk up the high street 'a scooter safari' and make jokes about getting their feet or their dog run over by them.

Being the fattest people in Western Europe really is a damning indictment though. We've nothing to be proud of on that score (or many other scores right now, tbh).

@ListenToTheRiver , yes I know from experience that getting the motivation to help yourself is difficult when you’re in the depths of depression. I resisted medication for a long time but when I did finally take it, it eventually helped me to help myself. I agree MH services are stretched although people can self refer for online therapy. I gather that the government intends to direct some of the money saved to improve access. It must surely be a better use of finite resources to work towards helping people get better rather than just allowing them to remain unwell and on benefits?

Exactly/ it’s like people being ‘signed off’ work with stress. Unless they also are taking active steps to work on ways to alleviate the stress it is utterly pointless.

This is so stupid. Obviously doctors say ‘how’s your diet’ and ‘make sure you’re getting exercise’ and ‘try to sleep at the same time every evening’. When you have something like bipolar or schizophrenia and you’re hearing and seeing things that don’t bloody exist you’re a bit past the point of being able to set yourself up with a good book and a bath before trotting of neatly to bed. And no, you don’t have to have extremes like schizophrenia to be incredibly impacted by your mental health - and the things that are affected is your ability to self care often! People you’re talking about are often struggling to brush their own teeth at times let alone “fix themselves with exercise”.

Anyone who CAN do what you’re asking doesn’t need to be on benefits - so they either AREN'T on benefits or they’ve miraculously worked out how to work they system. And if they have managed to work the system, obviously they aren’t going to care about taking money they aren’t owed are they? So who are you talking to here?

I think you’re talking to these people who are sitting about saying they have anxiety while they play video games? as someone who could really reeally do with PIP and whose life is blighted by neurological and mental health illnesses, I can tell you it is not easy to get through the system. Like as in really fucking hard and almost impossible. And it’s not reliable either even once you get it so it’s not a cushty payment.

so really just don’t talk about things you don’t understand.

and the goverment could do more to stop people from having anxiety and plying video games yes - but taking away pip from people who need it isn’t what to do. It just looks good to people like you who think most mental illness is just laziness. Here’s a list of things that might actually help:

stop cutting sports provisions in schools
ensure people aren’t living in poverty so they can eat healthier
Ensure healthy food is easy to access
limit how much sugar companies can put in food
limit the amount of fast food restaurants you can have in a town
no adverts for unhealthy junk food
get rid of age discrimination for wages where young people get paid less simply for being under 25
stop trains and buses being so expensive so people can take public transport easily to get out and about
the list goes on but none of it starts at taking help away from people when they’re already sick

Possibly because "you" are cats arse mouthed types who have no clue about about people's lives?

Is this like when people suggest I take vitamin C to stop me being unwell all the time?
I’m immunocompromised, I can’t improve my shit immune system

I don't really understand your premise, there are numerous public health campaigns which are asking people to do exactly that. People are told to look after their health.

Is there a factory spewing out these sanctimonious threads?

The ideal would be allow them to keep claiming benefits whilst being able to access help. Then once they’re feeling stronger, they can hopefully work. Not cut their benefits and make life worse for them as a way to try to force people to work which is what I believe this is, My relative would very likely just sit and die in that situation and hearing so many other people worried about losing their benefits because they’re not in a position to work is heartbreaking.

I feel very lucky to not need to claim benefits, our income is high, but I feel for others who are feeling scared about the future. The level of hatred and ableism that I’ve read on here recently is awful.

This. People are more aware of things like UPF's, and not drinking too much alcohol etc. Of course how much money a person has at their disposal, will inform some of those choices.

I don't want or need society to be adapted for neurodivergence - as you say most people are not neurodivergent - most people cannot do what I can do any more than I can do what they do.

I would like acknowledgement that the way society has been allowed to develop has increasingly and actively excluded neurodivergent people, hence the increasing diagnosis. Many of us aren't disabled, we've been excluded. It would be useful to acknowlege the problem and work towards a solution instead of fostering a culture of blame and shame. I despair at what we've become.

The culture in this country definitely should change. Many on mn will know the value of healthy food, being active, limiting screen time and do exactly that but so many people don’t. They think it’s a lifestyle out of their reach, hard work and quite alien.

If healthy living and being active became the cultural norm, most people would start from a good baseline of personal physical and mental health so when they do need help, they get the focussed help they need.

@ListenToTheRiver , I can’t agree that there is ‘hatred and ableism’ here. People are expressing entirely reasonable desires not to keep supporting people who could support themselves. I’ve not seen a single poster express a desire for those in genuine need to lose support. I’m confident that a Labour government would not be addressing this problem if they were not wholly convinced it existed.

We know that, it's just fact.

[citation needed]

My memory of the covid years is sketchy, but did we have a campaign during the Boris Era trying to get people to take more responsibility for their physical health, better diets and exercise?

Not sure it worked, or was well received..

Look, I absolutely will always wave the flag that says most people will always benefit from being in work. It's recognised for certain MH conditions that the routine of getting up and out for work every day can have a positive effect on MH issues and improve lifestyles. But clearly there will always be those who cannot work, and sadly there will always be those who don't want to work.

The "can but don't want to" group are the ones who should be targeted here.

BUT

Getting these people into work will only happen if employers agree. Agree to make adjustments, agree to have empathy and understanding, agree to work with employees and to their strengths. I do believe there is a job out there for everyone, but that's on employers not protective employees.

A few threads have been deleted this week already. Read some of the threads still here. See the amount of posts deleted on them for a start. I reported about 10 ableist posts yesterday and they’ve gone now. Then there are the thinly veiled ones which I don’t believe due to the language, previous posts of theirs you can see on advanced search, name changing etc.

How can a random person who doesn’t have the full details of someone’s health decide if someone is ‘genuine’ or not? People really overstep. Where I used to work a couple of women launched what I can only describe as a campaign against another woman that had been signed off as she wasn’t ‘genuine’. I was her manager and knew the full details and she absolutely was. People really don’t have a clue but for some reason assign themselves as arm chair medical professionals and think they can sit in judgement.

Im glad that you’re confident in Keir and his pals. I’m not.

@ListenToTheRiver , I did not say I’m confident in Keir which is very far from the truth. No one here can claim they can in any way diagnose another poster. I’m certainly not sitting in judgment which is thankfully not my job. Labour governments are well known for being very generous to those on benefits and concerned for the welfare of those in need. I suggest that if they have perceived a significant issue it suggests one exists. Those who are of that view are not necessarily either ableist or hateful.

Appreciate what you are saying OP and broadly agree. The problem is that the system is so large that someone somewhere will fall through the cracks and labour will have blood on their hands (I’m sure literally). When we were in uni we had a friend who’s girlfriend broke up with him, he shut himself away, played video games, missed lectures, refused to socialise completely (other than to ask if we knew what his ex was up to) and within 3 months was on antidepressants. It was obvious to us that he was doing nothing to help himself or his mood but he couldn’t see it and just took the pills while continuing to hole himself up in his room and obsess over what the ex was up to. I was astounded even then (12 years ago) that his dr just doled out antidepressants so easily after 1 drs visit and no other alternative therapies. I’m not saying this is the case for everyone but I certainly agree that more should be done to encourage people to influence their moods by alternative means and not chemicals. On another vein, I have a family member who has horrid migraines and one of the treatments their dr tried was to test them on certain antidepressants (as side effects of the drugs could help with the migraines) and it made them a completely different person - they hated the whole experience as they said they could literally feel their brain changing.

Certainly more could be done to ask people to take personal responsibility for their health all around but now the system is ingrained any change or tightening of the rules will be seen as a backward step rather than a positive. I’d hope we could all work together for a more prosperous country and to divert money from the welfare bill to the defence budget (it’s worrying to me that welfare dwarfs defence currently) but people in the system currently are of course going to panic about their future and lash out in anger.

I think it’s just that Keir is the most Tory Labour leader we’ve ever had personally. He’s not a good man, like so many other politicians. People were so happy to get the Tories out, but Keir is doing a good job of making sure labour will get their 4 years and then the tories, or possibly worse, will be right back in control.

There are plenty of ableist and hateful people and posts on mumsnet. Read the autism threads, mumsnet has said they have returning autism trolls, the place is full of them.

I am a doctor and have talked to many patients about lifestyle options which may help them, either with physical or mental health problems. It's part of a holistic approach to patients. Some will be able to act on the advice, others won't for complicated reasons which are not generally because they just want to live on benefits and suck the taxpayer dry. Some will need treatment beyond amending their lifestyle, and some will be too unwell to work alongside their treatment.

I know this both from professional experience because I have also been in the unpleasant position of having a psychiatrist tell me I'm not well enough to work.

Basically each person needs treating as an individual. Some people with mental or physical health problems are better off being at work. Some are not well enough. It would be nice if we had rapid access to all helpful treatments for patients with no waiting lists, I think that would be the best way of enabling people to work. Also helpful to give funding and support to employers so that they can look after their employees with long term health issues.

But please, can we stop making such broad generalisations about people? One person with depression may be helped by exercising more. Sadly that doesn't mean it's an effective treatment for everyone with that diagnosis.