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Do you back Zelensky, or do you back Putin and Trump? Poll

258 replies

noblegiraffe · 28/02/2025 20:04

I dunno what I'm starting this thread for, tbh. I just really, really felt like I wanted to click a button saying I support Zelensky and reject Trump and Putin tonight.

OP posts:
AccountCreateUsername · 01/03/2025 23:19

Anyway, I don’t believe for a millisecond we’ll be bathed in nuclear fire if the EU and other friendly states stand firm and show strength here. Better negotiating position I think.

Also Russia is pretty fucked right now. It’s not like this thread will determine any kind of outcome, but I think emotive fearmongering is pointless.

Its important to remember that Trump has benefited from Russian interference in American politics and we cannot trust his motivations where Russia is concerned.

Odras · 01/03/2025 23:23

I think ultimately he won’t secure US interests by walking them into an authoritarian state.

Moglet4 · 01/03/2025 23:24

Odras · 01/03/2025 22:35

But surely it does make sense to include Europe and Ukraine in negotiations about the war? Why put repairing relations with Russia as a top priority which Trump seems to have done? Why did he concede key things to Russia before talks had even started? Why is he trying to paint Zelensky as a dictator and Putin as a guy who has been given a hard time? Why is he trying to get financial gain for the US from the situation?

None of it makes sense.

Oh it makes perfect sense when you consider who the 3 stooges in the White House are.

Odras · 01/03/2025 23:35

I should have added. It doesn’t make sense to say any of it is good.

it’s definitely not good for the world.

AllTheBestUsernamesHaveBeenTaken · 02/03/2025 03:18

MikeRafone · 01/03/2025 07:16

the analogy as I see it

mexico invades and takes tucson and California, Europe supports US for a while but then says - actually your not grateful enough. Let Mexico have those 2 states and Europe must have all the oil in Texas

if you you don’t agree to this, then you don’t want peace

That’s quite an interesting analogy @MikeRafone. I do hope people realise what you mean instead of parroting the same talking points.

AllTheBestUsernamesHaveBeenTaken · 02/03/2025 03:29

Rosesducks · 01/03/2025 21:42

For those who beat the war drums, tell me what exactly is the preferred endgame?

Do you truly believe that throwing wave after wave of soldiers into the inferno will suddenly make Putin bow his head?

Unless you’re ready to turn the key and bathe the world in nuclear fire, this war doesn’t end with a glorious charge it ends in exhaustion, in rubble, in a battlefield where victory tastes as bitter as defeat.

Yes, I understand the desire for Ukraine to triumph. Its certainly a righteous cause, But tell me have you ever seen a kingdom rise from ashes?

Or does history teach us that when the dust settles, it’s the vultures who feast?

You may claim victory in the end, but when the cities are smouldering ruins and the streets are paved with ghosts, what exactly have you won?

So I ask you how many of you, sitting in your comfortable homes, would still cheer for war if the price was watching Europe burn?

@Rosesducks I’m not sure who is beating the “war drums”. I certainly am not. But I do know that Russia won’t stop until it takes back Ukraine. What’s to stop it from doing the same to other Baltic States. Do we then have Soviet Union, I don’t know, 2.0? If America and the whole world sanctions Russia, then Ukraine might keep its independency. Putin has shown what he does to his own political opponents et al. So I’m not sure any sort of peace deal would be respected for long.

AllTheBestUsernamesHaveBeenTaken · 02/03/2025 03:30

Sakura7 · 01/03/2025 19:21

Of course he won't. We know how this plays out.

@Sakura7 And you know this, how exactly?

AllTheBestUsernamesHaveBeenTaken · 02/03/2025 03:41

Ankhmo · 01/03/2025 08:38

I've been rowing online with some Americans, I shouldn't, I know.

I asked them,
"Should Ukraine give up territory to Putin?"
"Yes" they all said, "if it stops the war and saves lives"
"Ok" I reply, "and if Putin invaded Alaska, would you be happy to let him keep it if it saved lives? Or how about you give him Connecticut, Ohio, or Alabama?"
"Hell no, we wouldn't give him anything..."
"So why you asking Ukrainians to give up parts of their country?"

Same as anyone in the UK, would you hand Norfolk to invader? Yorkshire? London?

Anyone asking the Ukrainian people to just hand their territory to Putin to stop the war is a fool.
And if Putin wants peace, he could have peace, Putin could stop the war right now by ordering a withdrawal.

@Ankhmo Exactly. It’s like the school playground bully who keeps trying to grab the ball and run off with it. Only to be surprised the rest of the kids in the playground want their ball back and are willing to stand up for themselves. I don’t know the ins and outs of Ukrainian politics and so I’m not saying Zelensky hasn’t don’t anything wrong. But in terms of wanting peace? All Russia has to do is withdraw its troops from Ukraine and stop breaking peace deals. That shouldn’t be too difficult and would save money both for Russia and Ukraine. And while we’re at it, maybe Putin should stop trying to get rid of his political opponents. But I guess that’s wishful thinking.

PoltergeistsStartLowKey · 02/03/2025 06:10

Surely the evidence looks like Putin was planning on ending the conflict anyway but this way, it could look like Trump brokered a deal with him.

This way, the pair of them could plunder Ukraine and hollow it out until it is Ukraine in name only.

This was just the beginning of those 'negotiations'.

Z not signing has thrown it all into disarray.

What I don't understand is why people are not literally in the streets with pots and pans banging night and day and the whole country ceasing to function until he is out of office.

America, you are a joke.

cassie2and2 · 02/03/2025 07:10

what has putin done to gain any respect?

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 15:15

Rosesducks · 01/03/2025 22:45

Let’s break this down, shall we? Repairing relations with Russia isn’t about rolling out the welcome mat it’s about reducing risk, mitigating threats, and securing America’s strategic interests. A relationship with Russia, when handled correctly, can avoid the kind of escalation that no one wants. But of course, you wouldn’t know that from the way the media spins it. They’d have you believe that Trump is somehow giving up America's power. What he’s doing is resetting the board to negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness.

As for conceding key things to Russia before talks have even started welcome to the real world of negotiation. You don’t walk in demanding everything from the start. You build leverage, you create space for dialogue, and then you push when the time is right. But that’s too complicated, isn’t it? Easier to just cast Trump as the villain and call it a day.

Now, painting Zelensky as a dictator and Putin as misunderstood? Let’s not be naïve. Zelensky is a wartime leader, not a saint. And Putin? Well, he’s a ruthless player in a high-stakes game.

And the financial gain for the U.S. let’s not kid ourselves. This is exactly what politics is about. Power, leverage, and influence. Trump is positioning America to benefit from this, because the game isn’t about altruism. It’s about the long game. You either play it or you get played.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

People have become so obsessed with the goodies and baddies script that they seem to have forgotten that every country is interlaced with each other via trade deals, financial agreements and delicate power balances.

Even Ukraine and Russia fed off each other this way.

I'm not very knowledgeable about all this but this is how it looks to me:

Zelenski became prime prime minister and immediately cast out the 80 or so billionaire oligarchs that were highly likely keeping Ukraine in a strong enough protected position to prevent the full on invasion.
Zelenski got rid of them in a big show of 'cracking down on corruption', then they were invaded.
It was a dumb move. Zelenski perhsps should have looked at the consequences before wading in with his do good intentions.

Now Trump is coming back in to try and reset some of the financial position of Ukraine. People don't seem to be seeing the wood for the trees with this. If Trump owns Ukraines mineral production, Ukraine will have American protection, albeit by the back door.
Trump keeps his important relationship with Putin (he may even sell some of the minerals to him), Putin doesn't look to have 'lost', Zelenski can start to rebuild what's left of Ukraine, everyone can stop fighting.

This all makes sense to me anyway and I'm interested to see how this pans out over the next few weeks. Fingers crossed the fighting will stop and Ukrainians can start to rebuild their lives.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 02/03/2025 15:17

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 15:15

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

People have become so obsessed with the goodies and baddies script that they seem to have forgotten that every country is interlaced with each other via trade deals, financial agreements and delicate power balances.

Even Ukraine and Russia fed off each other this way.

I'm not very knowledgeable about all this but this is how it looks to me:

Zelenski became prime prime minister and immediately cast out the 80 or so billionaire oligarchs that were highly likely keeping Ukraine in a strong enough protected position to prevent the full on invasion.
Zelenski got rid of them in a big show of 'cracking down on corruption', then they were invaded.
It was a dumb move. Zelenski perhsps should have looked at the consequences before wading in with his do good intentions.

Now Trump is coming back in to try and reset some of the financial position of Ukraine. People don't seem to be seeing the wood for the trees with this. If Trump owns Ukraines mineral production, Ukraine will have American protection, albeit by the back door.
Trump keeps his important relationship with Putin (he may even sell some of the minerals to him), Putin doesn't look to have 'lost', Zelenski can start to rebuild what's left of Ukraine, everyone can stop fighting.

This all makes sense to me anyway and I'm interested to see how this pans out over the next few weeks. Fingers crossed the fighting will stop and Ukrainians can start to rebuild their lives.

I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that you are not very knowledgeable about all of this. 👏

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 15:24

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 02/03/2025 15:17

I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that you are not very knowledgeable about all of this. 👏

😄
It makes sense to me.

Do you think Zelenski getting rid of the Ukrainian oligarchs had no consequences whatsoever?
I'm keen to understand this part if you can enlighten me.
It seems like too much of a coincidence to me.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2025 15:54

Zelenski got rid of them in a big show of 'cracking down on corruption', then they were invaded.

But this is bollocks. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea in 2014 which was before Zelensky was even in power.

OP posts:
ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 16:21

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2025 15:54

Zelenski got rid of them in a big show of 'cracking down on corruption', then they were invaded.

But this is bollocks. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea in 2014 which was before Zelensky was even in power.

Ok, thank you for pointing that out. Is there really any reason to be so downright rude though?

I still think there is a big link between the passing of the anti-oligarch bill in Sept 2021, then Russia almost immediately organising and amassing troops on the border by Christmas, and the full on invasion in February.

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 16:26

AllTheBestUsernamesHaveBeenTaken · 02/03/2025 03:29

@Rosesducks I’m not sure who is beating the “war drums”. I certainly am not. But I do know that Russia won’t stop until it takes back Ukraine. What’s to stop it from doing the same to other Baltic States. Do we then have Soviet Union, I don’t know, 2.0? If America and the whole world sanctions Russia, then Ukraine might keep its independency. Putin has shown what he does to his own political opponents et al. So I’m not sure any sort of peace deal would be respected for long.

Two days ago America extended sanctions on Russia for 1 more year.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2025 17:20

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 16:21

Ok, thank you for pointing that out. Is there really any reason to be so downright rude though?

I still think there is a big link between the passing of the anti-oligarch bill in Sept 2021, then Russia almost immediately organising and amassing troops on the border by Christmas, and the full on invasion in February.

Yeah well I'm quite sceptical when someone says 'I don't know much about this but...' and then drops a load of talking points that blame Zelensky for the invasion and talks up Trump and Putin, tbh.

Have you any idea of the history of the region?

OP posts:
RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 02/03/2025 17:23

Calling out bollocks for being bollocks isn’t rude. If people had called out Putin, Trump etc for their bollocks in the past, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2025 17:40

Rosesducks · 01/03/2025 22:45

Let’s break this down, shall we? Repairing relations with Russia isn’t about rolling out the welcome mat it’s about reducing risk, mitigating threats, and securing America’s strategic interests. A relationship with Russia, when handled correctly, can avoid the kind of escalation that no one wants. But of course, you wouldn’t know that from the way the media spins it. They’d have you believe that Trump is somehow giving up America's power. What he’s doing is resetting the board to negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness.

As for conceding key things to Russia before talks have even started welcome to the real world of negotiation. You don’t walk in demanding everything from the start. You build leverage, you create space for dialogue, and then you push when the time is right. But that’s too complicated, isn’t it? Easier to just cast Trump as the villain and call it a day.

Now, painting Zelensky as a dictator and Putin as misunderstood? Let’s not be naïve. Zelensky is a wartime leader, not a saint. And Putin? Well, he’s a ruthless player in a high-stakes game.

And the financial gain for the U.S. let’s not kid ourselves. This is exactly what politics is about. Power, leverage, and influence. Trump is positioning America to benefit from this, because the game isn’t about altruism. It’s about the long game. You either play it or you get played.

Telling your adversary all the the things you'll drop, without getting anything back is just stupid...what exactly has Putin conceded? jack shit thats all.

If Russia truly doesn't want escalation, it can withdraw to at least pre 2022 borders... simple really.

But you suggesting that Putin is a ruthless high stakes player tells us all where your sympathies lay.

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 17:46

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 02/03/2025 17:23

Calling out bollocks for being bollocks isn’t rude. If people had called out Putin, Trump etc for their bollocks in the past, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

It is rude when it's just your opinion. Face it - none of us know for sure what's hidden below the surface of world politics. You can only find out what governments want you to find out.

People have always called out Putin and Trump.
I remember way back when he was trying to forcefully take protected sand dunes in Scotland to build a golf course and that man who (rightly) wouldn't budge from his home. Trump had to leave in the end.

Putin has always been viewed as a high risk character from way back when he first came on the scene in the 90's. I remember various articles about him at the time and how highly volatile he could possibly be in the future with his sights firmly set on presidency.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 02/03/2025 17:48

Oh I was thinking much further back than that. Their personalities were formed when they were children.

ThankyouBakedP0tato · 02/03/2025 17:58

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 02/03/2025 17:48

Oh I was thinking much further back than that. Their personalities were formed when they were children.

ok

Rosesducks · 02/03/2025 18:57

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2025 17:40

Telling your adversary all the the things you'll drop, without getting anything back is just stupid...what exactly has Putin conceded? jack shit thats all.

If Russia truly doesn't want escalation, it can withdraw to at least pre 2022 borders... simple really.

But you suggesting that Putin is a ruthless high stakes player tells us all where your sympathies lay.

Russia should just withdraw to pre-2022 borders, oh, if only international power struggles were that simple. If history has taught us anything, it’s that leaders don’t give up hard-won ground because someone demands it.

Power is never surrendered; it’s exchanged, bargained, leveraged. That’s the difference between wishful thinking and realpolitik.

Then your point about Recognizing that Putin is a ruthless player isn’t an endorsement it’s an acknowledgment of reality. And if you refuse to acknowledge reality, well, that’s how you lose.

I favor Ukraine. I see the stakes, the struggle, and the necessity of standing firm. But standing firm doesn’t mean blinding yourself to the nature of the opponent.

It doesn’t mean pretending that power dynamics disappear just because you wish they would. Understanding how Putin operates his calculations, his strategies, his willingness to play the long game doesn’t make me sympathetic. It makes me informed.

Because here’s the truth: if you don’t study your enemy, you’re walking into battle blind. And blind soldiers don’t win wars they get used, they get outmaneuvered, and in the end, they get discarded. I’d rather see the board for what it is, every piece, every player, and aim to understand all sides and points of view. That’s not sympathy. That’s strategy.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2025 19:13

I would suggest that Zelensky has rather more the measure of Putin than JD Vance. Which is why Vance kicked off when Zelensky pointed out that Putin doesn't stick to deals or ceasefires.

OP posts:
HauntedBungalow · 02/03/2025 20:46

Vance kicked off because Zelenskyy was getting dangerously close to stating that assurances from NATO and its members were what had got him into this mess in the first place.

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