Is "childless spinster" an insult?

[Tabitha1960]

Elsewhere on social media was a thread about a lady born in the 1880s and downthread a poster asked, did this lady have any descendants? The OP, a female historian, replied, "No, she died a childless spinster."

This caused some considerable uproar, with several posters vehemently attacking the OP for insulting the lady in question by using that phrase to describe her. The OP returned to say she was merely being plainly factual, and that she is, herself, also a childless spinster and sees no insult in either word.

(A great many on the thread appear to be American, is it perhaps an insult there but not in the UK?)

in what way is it derogatory?

The negative connotations attached to spinster may be archaic now, but it's still a loaded word. Just because it's still used on a marriage certificate doesn't mean people, in general, wouldn't have seen it as negative. The fact it comes from a time where the ultimate success in life for a woman was to achieve a good marriage implies that to remain single meant that society deemed you to have failed in some way.

Presumably the historian was using language accurate to the period, which is how modern readers should have probably interpreted it. Is spinster outdated and loaded- yes. Would I call myself one if I hadn't won the marriage lottery (!)? Only ironically. I'd be single, like many of the, now elderly, women in my family. I don't think I'd get out the house in one piece if I referred to them as spinsters.

It's offensive to describe someone in the context of what they're not. But to describe a factual situation it's fine. You'd never see someone described as an employed sister, because although it's factual it doesn't add any value to knowing who the person is. But answering direct question is fine.

No. The census just has U, M and W for both sexes. But wills and suchlike have always used spinster and bachelor. I've also seen them on parish burial records, marriage banns and certificates...

In an actual dictionary

definition under spinster
An unmarried woman, an old maid, a woman fit for the spinning house

under bachelor
an unmarried man (so far so equal)
one who has taken his or her first degree at univers ity
a young knight who follows the banner of another
a young unmated bull-seal or other male animal

Now I detect a slight imbalance in those definitions myself.

If you want to describe a single woman in a positive way I am not sure “fit for the spinning house” is the best way to go about it.

It’s not the unmarried status about each word that is the issue, never has been, it’s the “why unmarried” about the word that has always been unbalanced.

bachelorette is a word, use that instead let’s let spinster fade away with the old maids of yesteryear.

@TheMoth

"The fact it comes from a time where the ultimate success in life for a woman was to achieve a good marriage implies that to remain single meant that society deemed you to have failed in some way."

Agreed.

But that was then. Surely in these liberated days we don't see woman's worth as dependent on getting married and having children, so nowadays we can use the word spinster in a neutral or even positive way.

You said:

A word is only derogatory if the meaning we attach to it is derogatory.

I gave you an example of a word I find derogatory despite its innocuous meaning. You're being disengenuous and you know it.

Spinster has been used in a derogatory fashion to refer to unmarried women for a very long time. I understand that it means an unmarried woman, but it's used in a derogatory manner.

Therefore many women don't like to be referred to as spinsters. I understand that for you that's a bit of a head scratcher but people don't all think the same.

I don't see spinster (childless or otherwise) as a derogatory term, just an old fashioned one which has largely fallen into disuse now.

It's not language I would have automatically used, but that's just because it wouldn't occur to me. I'd be more likely to describe her as having remained single and never had any children.

Nothing wrong with "childless spinster" though. It is historically and factually correct. Those people are making a fuss about nothing.

In the modern context, it is sexist and clumsy at best to choose to use these words. Probably did it deliberately to garner clickrate.

Not sure they would have been as comfortable saying such and such was an illegitimate bastard.

It’s an archaic, disused term and definitely has ‘old maid’ connotations.

Or just single with no known children?

Only 20% of those who have voted in this poll find it derogatory.

I rest my case.

Apparently MN represents all women - who knew?

Maybe child-free bachelorette is better 😁 I hate the word spinster it’s just very unpleasant-sounding to my ears- sort of like spider and sinister mixed together.

Well it's a statement of fact, although the word spinster is uncredibly outdated. The issue is whether it's said as a loaded description with a value judgement attached to it.

I hate the term. It really isn't PC. I do have a child but I am a happy singleton by choice. But the older I get now 63 the more people look at me with pity.
I look at their ageing, grumpy old men husbands and pity them.

I would say that you're more of a fallen woman.

‘Spinster’ is hardly used now but historically it just meant an unmarried woman.

If it referred to an older woman, ‘old maid’ was another term that was often used.

It always seems to be that married with DC is the default and anything else is seen as lesser

I've had people ask if I have DC, then turn away when I say no and start speaking to someone else who has them
Or friends who now don't invite me to anything as "they're taking the children" and going to stuff with their friends who have them

So on top of that I don't really want to be called a spinster because whether I'm married or have children doesn't and shouldn't define me, I'm not less of a woman because I can't afford a child

Ah I love being patronised on here. Thanks for that OP.
I'm not 'muddled up'. It's a word with very negative connections and connotations, which therefore, understandably, I obviously wouldn't chose to use to describe myself or any woman.
It is misogyny that has lead to the social differences between bachelor and spinster. It is not being misogynistic to acknowledge that imbalance.

Not really. Just depends how much you've read.

It means unmarried woman, but in the old days it used to be very shameful for a woman to not marry so yeah it’s derogatory. I’m unmarried never had children if someone called me a spinster these days I’d be furious. To use a term that meant you should be ashamed of yourself,

Replying to... can't remember who. But no, because unless the word suddenly ameliorates or is used widely and broadens to lose its negative connotations, it will still hold the earlier connotations.

Just like DH isn't referred to as a bastard or a by-blow anymore because he was born illegitimately in the 1970s.

Some words change their meaning, otherwise we wouldn't celebrate anyone who was a 'natural', but I really don't think 'spinster' has- unless everyone suddenly reclaims it and it becomes synonymous with single and happy, rather than over 25 and missed the marriage train.

Some people just look for reasons to get offended