Strange neighbour or am I being harsh.

[Readytoevolve]

So here are the facts.

We are new to our estate. One neighbour has taken a keen interest in being friendly and asking a million questions, he’s very nosey.
He loves telling neighbours he knows us and is over familiar towards us when other neighbours are around.
One day I was walking and I saw him walking towards me after a run, he spotted me, ran again then stopped as though he was just stopping for the first time. Quite performative.
He has a DD 3 similar age to mine and they do like to play outside (supervised) When he speaks to my children he tends to get up close to talk to the them, in their face sort of.
One day he took my DD’s hand and spun her around like he was dancing with her, but did so vigorously and she fell, he didn’t care or comment. He takes a keen interest in what she’s wearing and will touch her clothes to ask what’s that picture type things on your top. Happened maybe 3 times.
His daughter is a lovely kid, but incredibly withdrawn in my opinion.
His wife is lovely but I have never seen her out with her DC without him, ever. They walk to collect the children from nursery every single day as a family, I mean nothing wrong with that, but unusual as I don’t see anyone else do that. I feel like he can’t leave his wife to talk to anyone else without supervision.
He attends DD’s and his DD’s baby ballet class to watch as a full family unit, where as I just take DD and DH and other DC stay at home.

I don’t get a good vibe. Am I being harsh or should a man ever touch or dance with another child. When it happens I feel frozen. Like, he’s my neighbour. I can’t say don’t touch my kid cause what he’s doing is somewhat harmless but also in my opinion crossing a boundary. I can’t start an argument. As it stands, our children will attend same school, we live in the same estate, we’re pretty stuck with them. And he’s always outside walking passed our house.

Any thoughts?

Since he's been giving the impression he knows you/is closer to you than is the case I think it's important to disabuse neighbours of that idea. But I would try not to make it a gossip fest. I don't think these are foolproof red flags. There are plenty of people who are awkward and socially inappropriate without being pedophiles or a danger to others.

We also need to realise that not every man/woman who behaves outside the norm is a paedophile. Some people are just different.
A balance is needed. Be careful, vigilant and mind your children. Don't be paranoid and accusatory without evidence.

Don’t let them make you feel crap, you offered your own experience which I think is valid, you never said it was okay and you never said lots of autistic people do it. Some people just love to start an argument.

Very sensible and articulate answer.

Please don't put it on your DD that she doesn't like to be touched. It is inappropriate behaviour, you should make it clear that you do not want him to touch her because it is inappropriate. He may react badly, but that is his problem - you must be firm on your DD's behalf not pretend it is her wishes you are responding to.

Hi, thanks for your response. Of course I would never gossip or anything of the sort, I just wondered if someone brought him up with concerns surrounding him, would I mention what’s happened.
Autism or not, he knows that touching another child, even if in plain sight is not right. We can’t use ND as an excuse where child safety is a concern. I don’t care if he’s autistic and doesn’t realise, he’s making us uncomfortable. His issues are his, not ours.

Autism or not, he knows that touching another child, even if in plain sight is not right. We can’t use ND as an excuse where child safety is a concern. I don’t care if he’s autistic and doesn’t realise, he’s making us uncomfortable. His issues are his, not ours.

Yes he does know if he is in the medical field - and so does his wife a Head Teacher witnessing his inappropriate grabbing and touching behaviours.

I'm autistic and I think you're way off here. Yes, the family might be ND, no way of knowing. But it's a dangerous assumption that no one would groom or predate upon a child in plain sight. It happens all the time. Predators push boundaries, it's what they do, and one of the ways they often do this is by seeing what they can get away with in plain view. Never assume that abuse and grooming behaviour is ALWAYS hidden. It's very often not.

Edited to add: I'm not arguing that this individual is a predator, by the way. I don't think we can make a judgment on that from these instances. I only wanted to pick up on the issue around grooming being something that's always hidden.

@Readytoevolve

I don't think you understand what neurodiversity means.

An autistic person doesn't 'know' their behaviours that are socially not normative are 'not right'. That's exactly why being autistic is so challenging.

For all you know, your neighbour understands touching a child's clothing to be perfectly acceptable. Autistic people tend to think in quite a black and white way, with little nuance. So if it's ok for him to touch his own child, your neighbour won't necessarily understand that touching another person's child is not ok. He might not be able to differentiate between the two situations. An autistic person does not automatically make the connections that someone who is quote unquote 'normal' will. For the poster who has said that he would know this because he works in medicine - not necessarily. He may be a researcher in a lab with no patient contact.

Please do be mindful of your language. Someone with autism doesn't have 'issues'. They just behave in a way that's not always recognised as socially acceptable.

I'm not saying neurodiversity should be used as an excuse for behaviour that makes a child unsafe. No one is. But suggesting that this man is doing something horrific by touching a child's t shirt is not universally true and does not equate to abuse. Some people are more tactile than others, some people come from cultures where touching is more acceptable than others, and certainly touching of other people's children is more acceptable than in British culture - and so on. Just because behaviour makes you uncomfortable, it doesn't mean that the person displaying those behaviours is wrong/has issues/is abnormal in some way. We are all different.

The way to deal with this is through communication.

If it happens again - 'X, I'd really rather you didn't touch or grab DD as it makes me feel uncomfortable. Thank you for respecting that.'

Simple as. If he is ND - and obviously we don't know if he is, but if he is - then this clear and direct communication will help him to understand those boundaries and ensure he can interact with you and your family in a way that makes you both feel comfortable and safe. If he isn't ND and is behaving in a way that is knowingly inappropriate because he gets off on it - then you've given him a clear warning and he knows he can't get away with it in future.

This is one of those situations where you could be on to something or you could be totally misreading. So, firstly - communicate, then watch, listen and wait. Time will tell if you have legitimate concerns to pursue.

I am not going to say if I or my child are ND because it truly does notbmatter. What I will say is this attitude is awful. First off ND does not ever mean it's OK to cross someone's personal boundaries. Ever.

The comment you're replying to doesn't actually state that being ND means it's ok to cross someone's personal boundaries.

Yes and some ND adults and parents of ND children are tired of being lumped in with any and all non "normal" behaviors. It's very much a disservice to all.

If it happens again.....?

One day he took my DD’s hand and spun her around like he was dancing with her, but did so vigorously and she fell, he didn’t care or comment. He takes a keen interest in what she’s wearing and will touch her clothes to ask what’s that picture type things on your top. Happened maybe 3 times.

He has already crossed the line with the DD 4 times as well as being socially intrusive with OP - do not wait for this to happen again.

He is pushing boundaries.

Good posts from @EnidSpyton. OP, I don’t understand why you’re so passive in all this. The neighbour twirled your child so vigorously she fell over. You say he ‘didn’t care or comment’, but what did you say or do? Why aren’t you communicating about unwanted touching, when you’re actually there, or physically interposing yourself? It’s perfectly possible to assert boundaries and be civil. Why is your impulse to start a thread on the internet where you seem to have mixed up his behaviour around your daughter with total irrelevances, like him starting to run again mid cool-down?

@BorneoBop

What do you suggest? She goes round to his house and says 'don't touch my daughter ever again?' totally out of any context?

If they are in a situation where they are interacting together and he goes to do something that makes the OP uncomfortable, she needs to communicate it then and there. She has already said that she won't leave her daughter alone with him or let her play outside unsupervised while he is around, so the situation won't arise unless she's there with her daughter and can intervene immediately.

I'm afraid you can't say the neighbour is pushing boundaries when the OP hasn't actually communicated any boundaries to him. Only once the OP has said - actually please don't touch my child - to the neighbour, will she have made it clear to him that she doesn't like his behaviour. The fact she's not said anything up to now is actually communicating to the neighbour that he's totally fine to keep doing what he's doing.

@BoundaryGirl3939 I think grooming is the opposite. Grooming is often open and public, creating a visible and innocent connection with someone. This then means that when the abuser tries something secret and inappropriate, the victim feels they can’t say anything, “because it’s nice Dave from next door isn’t it, and everyone loves Dave, he comes to our house for barbecues and he put up our rope swing” etc etc.

@Notmanyleftnow Touching other people's clothes is unacceptable

Excuse you! Autistic people can be Doctors, Professors even, or headteachers! Ffs

Something that would concern me is the wife. As a headteacher she would be expected to be keenly aware of safeguarding, and know that both her own job was potentially on the line if she was witnessing inappropriate behaviour by her husband towards a child and letting it go unchecked. So there's a possibility he's groomed her. Or that his drive to touch other people's children is so strong he's disregarded anything she's said. Maybe she accompanies him everywhere to keep him in check.

My father, an intelligent professional man, had a fixation on small female children and behaved in this way. My mother simultaneously knew and pretended not to know.

I would tell him very clearly that his behaviour is not appropriate.

Protect your child! You must tell him '"Don't touch her!" No please or thank you. I reckon he's abusing his own child.

why has my thread about a creep, one of which seems quite calculated (the running example I gave) turned into an argument about autism? Like why bother? I don’t care if he’s ND. I truly don’t. It doesn’t excuse his behaviour, despite what some have said here. How odd.

I don’t think he’s in any way ND, so I’m not factoring that into my reaction to him. So move on if you’re going to post here, it’s not helpful.

He’s incredibly controlling from what I when experienced. I’ve seen them planning on doing one thing outside it’s the children to him drastically changing the plan, and making her go along with it. She went into a very confused state but didn’t argue with him.
Another time, we were discussing how Christmas was for them, he told us he was sick all Christmas and it was dreadful. I asked was anyone else unwell, he said no, just him. His wife said, no, both DC were sick with temperatures too, don’t you remember. He just brushed it off.
I’ve seen more traits of a narcissistic in these moments.

If you are as convinced as you seem to be that this man is a predator then you and your husband are pathetic at having not told him to leave your daughter alone sooner. I could never look at my OH’s face again if he didn’t have the urge to protect our daughter from what you and he clearly think is inappropriate behaviour.

I am not saying that he’s a predator because it is a post on Mumsnet and I haven’t witnessed it myself and everyone puts their own slant on things like this. But you are so convinced that you are willing to discuss with neighbours etc possibly tarnishing his reputation so really it’s a bit weak that you haven’t told him straight. Time to woman up if you’re that convinced.

People are posting it as explanation and to help you out In YOUR communication because so far your way of dealing with this has been to do nothing.

Just calmly and clearly say to him not to touch your child - a poster upthread had a a good script - and go from there. Not sure what else you want or need from this thread. No one can say if he's ND or a predator. All that matters is that YOU communicate calmly and clearly to protect your daughter.

Ya I’ll turn against my husband now too, who wasn’t there for the main events.
I’m leaving the thread now, it’s gone down unnecessary rabbit holes and just stressing me out, and not helping.