Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

Beautiful comment. Agree with you.

I expect mainly ethnically appropriate people in a play set in Medieval Europe - which had a Jewish diaspora and Moors in Spain and Sicily - and something more diverse in a play set in Milton Keynes in 2024. Seems reasonable to me. Part of a play's point is the willing suspension of disbelief, which is hampered if I have to accept that a black couple have a white child or vice versa (unless subject is adoption etc).

I have seen so much on here I can't remember the point. Who thinks you are biased and why, OP?

Othello.

I understood Dr Who was an alien. His projection into human time/space probably has nothing to do with what he really looks like, so his colour (and probably sex) are irrelevant. For all I know Time Lords have six tentacles, are green and live in a nitrogen environment - they show us themselves as we find acceptable.

Yes, but you would expect a range of skin tones, not one black person and everyone else white, when they are biologically related? Such a family would be possible in nineteenth century Europe e.g Dumas pere et fils, the son and grandson of a black general in Napoleon's army.

Agree. Unlikely an abbot in sixteenth century England was black - unlikely to impossible I would say.

Part of a play's point is the willing suspension of disbelief, which is hampered if I have to accept that a black couple have a white child or vice versa (unless subject is adoption etc).

Yes... in the Cymbeline I saw recently it was absolutely fine for the 'Britons' to be mainly a black matriarchy; it would have been a bit better if the lost twins hadn't been white. The rest of the casting was congruent and made dramatic sense.

BS. White working class boys may struggle, but they're not being stopped and searched by police for the colour of their skin.

Your racism is breathtaking.

Other than police stop and search, which I’m not qualified to make any comment on, can you give examples of institutionalised racism in schools/hospitals/the workplace in Britain ( not the USA which has a completely different history)

Yawn, no-one listens or reads properly. I did not say white working class boys were discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, I said they were the most disadvantaged group in the UK. They are discriminated against because of social class (a far more influential cause of poor outcomes than colour in the UK).
And I will say it again, racism is NOT about colour, it is about otherness. This is why the Conservative party has no problem at all with a leader or ministers etc who are black or brown etc, because their criteria is wealth-creation and business-friendly politics (and biological reality these days). Many who believe in the oppressor/victim narrative call those black or brown people who rise through Conservative channels not black/brown enough, race traitors, and some pejorative terms I will not use (because they are racist). Black and brown people are not meant to be successful and vote Tory because that does not fit with the oppressor/victim narrative - that they do shows that the oppressor/victim narrative is false.
I think black teenagers are stopped and searched because the evidence is that they are more likely to belong to post-code gangs and carry knives than other demographics. If that description fittend Chinese people they would be targetted instead. Personally, I'd rather the police spent time on likely knife-carriers (whatever their ethnicity - and in Glasgow I bet it is white working class boys who are stopped and searched most frequently) than waste time frisking grannies. It keeps people alive.
Your racism is pretty breath-taking.

I think black teenagers are stopped and searched because the evidence is that they are more likely to belong to post-code gangs and carry knives than other demographics.

I think on that point you're minimising a wider problem. DH had a black PhD chemist working for him, in an area unlikely to have 'post code gangs'. He was quite often stopped and searched for, as far as anyone could tell, 'being black in possession of a fairly nice car'. OTOH, and also a form of racism, whenever there was a visit by a VIP likely to involve a photo opportunity, he'd invariably be called on to attend, along with one of the few female employees. I'm sure everyone has seen that type of corporate photo... upper management making people hired because they were the best candidates look like tokenism.

Exactly. (I want to repeat this but won't!!!!).

Skin colour along is why most stop and search happens. If a Black man is driving an expensive car = drug dealer. A white man = professional.

Yes white working class boys are disadvantaged. Zero to do with racism.

A Black boy in a classroom being disruptive is far more likely to be labelled a thug than a white one doing the same thing.

I don't know how the existence of racism more widely is entirely relevant.

Does racism exist in the UK? Of course.
Do I still usually find it unrealistic and a bit distracting when watching a period drama for there to be English aristocrats played by actors who are non-white? Yes.

Do women experience sexism? Yes.
Do I want to see a drama where Henry VIII is played by a woman? Definitely not.

Do disabled people experience discrimination? Yes.
Would a version of Wuthering Heights where Heathcliff is in a wheelchair work for me? Probably not.

Do gay people experience discrimination? Yes.
Do I want to see a version of Pride and Prejudice where randomly there are lots of same-sex couples dancing at the balls desire everything else being fairly in keeping with the period? No.

Sorry that should have been

"Do I want to see a version of Pride and Prejudice where randomly there are lots of same-sex couples dancing at the balls despite everything else being fairly in keeping with the period? No."

I'm not, ofcourse, and that calls into question colour blind casting, since the majority ethnicity is white European you would expect most parts to go to white Europeans. However, that's not what is being demanded at all.
I - and all ethnically European people from the Sami to the Maltese - are a minority world-wide. So I am, in the context of the world. I am also, of course, irrespective of colour, race or creed, a member of the most persecuted minority on the planet, who actually make up a majority - women. More discrimination is handed out to women of all sorts for being women than for being 'other'.

Racism is much more that just othering.

I don't believe your concerns for Jewish people at all. Nothing you have written demonstrates any true understanding or genuine empathy for Jewish people as ethnic identities or Jewish people as members of different forms of the religion. We can all jump to the most recent sensationalised images.

Socrates was right about voting being a skill which should be developed. It's a skill which requires intelligence and reasoning.

Education on its own is not the best guardian of democracy. Intelligence, IQ, EQ etc. are equally, if not more important.

Everyone living in the 50+ countries on the continent of Africa is oppressed? Has slaves? Really? That statement speaks volumes about who you really are. I bet you don't think of Europe as one homogenous mass. I wonder why that is...

The problem White working class boys underperforming has been caused by amongst other things, White attitudes on aspiration, White attitudes on education and majority White leaders and policymakers in those democratically elected governments that you so love.

HTH

@TheAmusedQuail tends not to read posts but jumps to the conclusion that you should see past inappropriate colour-blind casting e.g. a black sixteenth century abbot - that's not likely - otherwise you must have some other agenda. As to abbots of colour, if it were the 7th century or 9th, then it's possible and acceptable. However, I do wish colour blind casting was not all one way.

What on earth is going on here?

Is it a competition? Are we competing over who has it harder? I'm black and a woman so do I qualify for a discrimination badge of honour?

Are some people so fragile they can't even allow black people to express their experiences of discrimination?

Remember, you always see what you believe to be true - you'll notice more people of colour in tv/adverts etc because it suits your narrative that the industry is heavily biased towards black actors over white - this is absolute nonsense. The majority of tv shows /films have majority white cast (and crew) and so we should expect, being a (hugely) majority white country. No complaints from me there.

Obviously when it comes to London theatre, actors have to live within one hour distance away so you'd expect to see more poc seeing as more poc live in London.

Even when on set, other issues occur: try getting a make up artist or hairstylist who specialises in black hair/make up. Very unlikely.

Stop acting like black actors are living the life of Riley with their pick of jobs. The industry is very unpredictable for all actors but poc (and other groups) have other challenges on top of that.

Sorry to collate all my gripes onto your reply but people in here, it seems, want to minimise poc's struggles and lessen their opportunities.
Be nice.

If the history is so different what is the point of this thread?

Why can’t black people and other minorities play powerful wealthy roles in history?

Racism is about colour.

It sounds like you struggle to accept your whiteness is an advantage.

I don’t understand why it’s hard to understand?

It’s in the name. It’s not called otherism.

Do you think discrimination of disabled people is also racism?

You sound upset that you’re less oppressed which is bizarre.

@Grammarnut
"However, I do wish colour blind casting was not all one way"

It isn't.

Racism is about colour.

Racism is about ethnicity, not necessarily the colour of a person's skin.

Nicely put.

Yoko Ono was very much of this opinion!