Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

It's the excuse that is always used to hire a young, white man.

• Best person for the job. Not a woman. Despite being more qualified and experienced.

• Best person for the job. Not a person of colour. Despite being more qualified and experienced.

• Best person for the job. Not a person over the age of 40.

• Best person for the job. Not a differently abled person.

Best person for the job is always going to be a young, white man, unless we actively have quotas to fill. We live in a racist, sexist, ageist, ableist society.

There is mucho racism in this thread. I'm betting just about every person on here who is against colourblind casting is white.

Yeah, I've forgotten the complexities of the argument. But the lecture started with us being asked to list the first 10 Afro British/American famous people we could think of. It was pre Obama and just about every one listed (other than MLK) was someone in the arts or in sports. Because they were areas that offered a small access to success. Whereas historically, there was very little access to academic or professional success.

Whereas, 1st generation British Asians came to the UK, opened family owned business and placed very high expectations on their children to excel academically and aim for doctors or lawyers. Or as 2nd best, possibly engineers.

Well smack me on the back of my hand, why such a horrible reply and so what if it has...I am quite a busy person who hasn't got time to read everything

@TheAmusedQuail please don't use the term 'differently abled' it's so far from reality.

It's not a 'different ability' if you've only got one hand, or you can't walk properly.

It's a DISability. It's not a superpower. It means that you can't do things that others without those disabilities can.

Please stop dressing this stuff up with this unbearable toxic positivity.

And yes, I'm disabled.

Sorry. I realise that might be a derail of the conversation but it just grinds my gears! As you were!

I’m not that poster, but that exact point, though it’s not the kind of ‘Gotcha!’ the posters making it appear to think, has been made at least twenty times on the thread, and almost all by people who clearly haven’t read any of the thread. Ditto on the previous thread about this. It’s the ‘Cancel the cheque!’ of diverse casting threads.

Apologies. I've also been pulled up for using the term disabled in the past by other disabled/differently abled.

@TheAmusedQuail I do realise it's difficult to get right - so apologies if I sound like I'm ranting! It's difficult to find a catch all term i guess. And of course not everyone feels held back by these things in the same way.

I appreciate you were trying to be considerate to all.

I doesn’t really bother me per se but I get annoyed when people then try to say ‘well we don’t know that Anne Boleyn wasn’t black’ - hmm yeah we don’t, if only she had a child who then became one of the most famous Monarchs ever and had her portrait painted loads, oh well we will have to just live in ignorance then.

’We don’t know that Bess of Hardwick wasn’t Asian’ well all the evidence, her family lineage and, again, her portraits which still exist, suggest that she was not.

Cast whoever you want in whatever you want, to me it doesn’t matter for my enjoyment of the story but for the love of god stop trying to actually change history to suit modern agendas.

@JaneBoleynViscountessRochford I'm triggered....

😄

You can try to History lesson me all you want, I'm Irish, it rankles to say the least

White Fragility is not racist.

The title seems quite apt given this entire thread.

BLM is about cops only seeing colour and black people being killed because of that.

Do you understand systemic racism?

Because it’s a ridiculous statement.

It’s a comparison ignoring the power imbalance that white people have.

Are you saying black people in that school got in because they were black?

Best person for the role but if there are mainly black actors they probably weren’t the best?

Ya, your interpretation is pretty racist.

Thank you!

I remember (my age) when TV was a sea of white. Hell, all media was white.

Thankfully it is less so now. Don't like it, turn it off.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 if there were a disproportionate number of white students, would you also think that is due to individual merit or would you say it is due to racism?

Personally, I'm very open to the idea that black people are just better on average than white people at the performing arts and that is the reason for the disparity. But I do think it's a massive double standard that whenever there is a disproportionate number of white people in a given area it's automatically labelled racist and a problem that needs to be solved, but nobody is allowed to even notice when the numbers are disproportionate the other way around.

But the lecture started with us being asked to list the first 10 Afro British/American famous people we could think of. It was pre Obama and just about every one listed (other than MLK) was someone in the arts or in sports.

If people were asked to name 10 famous white people I suspect with the odd politician/royal aside the list would mainly be sports and arts. Almost no one would mention a lawyer or doctor.

@IamSallyBowles
You made a really interesting point.

I looked at non London drama schools for comparison and ....

you're .....

Absolutely right. Thank you.

I'm sure it'd always be overly biased to those groups - 'fame' requires being in the public eye so professions where that's an integral part of the job are bound to take the lions share.
But I'd have thought the 'famous white people' would include political leaders (currently trump and putin) and major business figures (Musk, maybe Zuckerberg or Bazos, Gates receding now). People with real power - the 21stC equivalents to the kings of old.

All of those are racist and sexist reasons which are against the law. And when I say the best person, I mean the best person irrespective of age, sex or colour. And that also is supposedly the law. Also, the UK has very little racism. Women and non-ethnic groups prosper here and non-ethnic groups prosper best when they integrate, as can be seen by the success of both Hindus and Sikhs, for example.
Not wanting a black actor to play Richard III in an otherwise white cast is not racist, it's sense. To do other is to suggest that the past is different from what it was. One could, of course, have a mix of ethnicities and perhaps set the play somewhere other than medieval England - which is often done. I've seen an excellent Macbeth set in an African kingdom, and setting WS elsewhere than the original is frequent (ditto Lear).
My DD is against colour-blind casting that makes nonsense of the play or of history. She's not white.

The UK has very little racism? Really?

What makes you say that? That’s not my experience. Are you a minority?

Also what do you mean when you say integration? What does that look like?

Very little racism. I remember the racist remarks thrown at me and my DC in the 80s. I have seen nothing like that in the last 30 years. Of course there are bigots. I have met some. Like racism, bigotry comes in all colours, sadly.

I’m not sure you can declare that the UK has very little racism. It may well have less than it once did, but I wouldn’t say very little! Feels like that’s up to the people who experience it to say. ETA just seen you of course have the experience of your daughter / children. But not sure everyone else would agree. It’s like saying the UK has very little sexism- it’s definitely better than it was but there’s still plenty.

Are you black? What is your background?

My experience is very different from yours as a WOC.