Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

Also Anne Boleyn's character was blackened deeply by Cromwell, who wanted rid because Henry was tired of her, couldn't get a son on her. What she was really like is suggested more by the fact the ladies assigned to her while she waited for execution became devoted to her - and they were the wives and daughters of her enemies holding an assumption that she was a bad lot. She was probably a woman of great charm.

She was very articulate and well read, and had a good knowledge of the religious debates. She's been demonised of course! Cromwell had to get rid of her somehow.

Unless you are happy with Ghenghis Khan played by a woman with blonde hair and blue eyes?

Wouldn't bother me one bit. His ethnicity isn't part of the story, particularly.

It has been reassuring to see how many people on this thread are personally informed of the ethnicity of Christ, because on most of MN the usual categorisation is ‘sky fairy’ or non existence.

Thank you for the history lesson. An outsider to the ladies due to her time in the French Court and her adoption of different styles and mannerisms. You know rather like the girl in the class who doesn't run with the herd is often considered an outsider.

I apologise if that was too nuanced for you but there was really no need to be so condescending.

MLK's story is literally about him fighting for equality for black people in a time which was incredibly racist, divided and dangerous. MLK's race is therefore integral to the story.

Nonesense? How dare you? The transatlantic slave trade was the largest forced movement of a (African) people - full stop. The conditions they endured during the middle passage were horrendous and if they survived the journey (thousands didnt) having been stripped of their name, culture and away from their families would have been harrowing. Raped, abused, beaten. children ripped from their mothers to be enslaved. Don't ever minimise the trauma that black people have had to endure - the effects of which are still felt today.

Do you know how difficult it is to get funding to make a tv show or film? Making a show with prodominately black actors will have even less chance of funding.

I do agree it would be better to tell more minority stories, but I suspect that’s a permanently hard sell for? to? the tv people, as actually telling the stories - historical or otherwise- of minority groups is going to find it harder to get funded / approved etc. That’s why we have so many The Tudors type things.

Surely there's pretty widespread consensus that there was a historical figure at the core of the stories, and that he would have been ethnically the same as all those around him? Maybe I hang out in the wrong corners of MN!

My 4 children are all (black) child actors and i can tell you that your b) point is absolute tosh. Society wants to see black actors? 😅 does this discussion not tell you otherwise (and online generally 🙁). Agents take on a variety of actors, not just black and white (we don't all look the same because we share an ethnicity! Casting directors are following the productions wishes. Society wants to see good actors in good roles and sometimes that will lead to non white actors getting the role. From my experience, the majority of tv and film castings are still for white chatacters and that is expected as we're in the UK. Let's not get into the behind the scenes crew though! Totally non representative.

“ From feminists of colour who should know better”

Really?

Feminists of colour must agree with you or else they don’t know better?

And white feminists are now discriminated against based on race?

Please tell us where this happens.

Yes but the white people you mentioned are not being discriminated by their colour, so that's not racism is it. Being lower class or from the wrong demographic or a feminist doesn't have to be white. Most African countries a d Caribbeans put white people on a pedestal and bend over backwards for the most part. I think this may be a legacy of oppression but that's a different discussion.

Britain wasn't always racist in the way that we understand racism today, was it? I guess we won't ever really know.

I have always believed that racism was a strategy that justified enslavement, but i could be wrong.

If you have any suggested read (good sources, please) I would be grateful.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race

Here’s an article about racism in Britain.

The imtersting thing about this back of an envelope calculation is that searching that historians have found about 200 named black individuals in Tudor documentation. The first black man on the UK we still have an image of was a trumpeter in Henry VIII court called John Blanke, there is a letter from him to the King asking for a pay rise and it is believed he came to the UK as part of the retinue of Katherine of Aragon. I do wish that drama commissioners weren't so conservative in their choices of dramas and we could see dramas based on the lives of the real black people we know lived in the UK throughout history. There have been some historical dramas about real black people - Belle and A United Kingdom were both written by Amma Asante and cover parts of black British history a lot of people don't know about. I assume the true story of Dido Elizabth Belle also inspired the character of Kitty in Ghosts.

In Britain we have a tradition of domestic historical drama, often based on royalty, as they were the ones writing things down. Within that, people of colour usually appear as either slaves or servants, as that is how history has been written, even if it is inaccurate. It would be a great shame for everyone to only see people of colour in these roles and not great stereotypes for the next generation. Much better to have an industry where all actors can have access to varied roles.

No. Jesus of Nazareth was an historic figure. He didn't rise from the dead nor was he the son of God imo, but nobody thinks he wasn't a real person.

Do you think the Catholic Church, which is seriously misogynistic, would be ok with a black abbot? Really?

The church ( Catholic and CofE) which has, for millennia treated people with different skin tones as beneath.

I would love to see a film or tv drama based on James McCune Smith. He certainly deserves one.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McCune_Smith

Not at all, what do you think Shakespeare is

But when actors act Shakespeare, they tend to do it with accents that were not of the time. Apart from London and some other cities and differences in northern English dialogue, the vast majority of the population, even posh people, would have spoken in what we know hear as a yokel type accent and spoken in a way that sounds somewhat back to front. And while if you went full on with that representation, it might be a bit hard to follow, historical dramas could be written without full on RP speech and langauge, intonation and phrasing that you hear in the 21st century, it just doesnt fit

I would agree with that.

I'd also add, perhaps controversially, that audiences for stage are more educated so more aware of the real historical context than viewers of solely screen.

She wasnt black, there is enough written about to determine she wasnt black.

The possible ancestor referred to as a 'moor' was not only around 500 years before she was born, but was not certain to be her ancestor and likely to be Islamic (which is what moor meant at the time) rather than black per se. It wasnt a word used to describe race at the time

And this is the problem of trying to make things up to make it fit. She wasnt black and its ok.

She was of African ancestry with African features, albeit with lighter skin. Where do you get Islamic from???

I don't know who you are referring to specifically but this certainly does not apply to me.

To understand the continuing race inequality in our society, we need to have an understanding of the historical context. It's very easy as an educated adult to think that of course anyone watching an historical drama depicting black people in positions of power and privilege would know that it was just a case of choosing an actor who could portray the part well, and not meant to be a true reflection on attitudes to race in the 1600s. Unfortunately, I know enough Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids to know that most of them do not feel any need to further investigate and take what they see on TV as gospel.

I was going to say the same, not an outsider at all

Its a massive reach to try to make up theories as to why a black Anne Boleyn was needed. If people just want a black actress to play her and throw away accuracy, not a problem. Not my cup of tea but not a problem

More of a problem when people try to make things up to make out why a black Anne Boleyn works

See also the nonsense about the black Queen Charlotte.

This is a massive issue. The biggest group of POC in the UK are south Asians and ME people and yet watch any programme or advert in the UK and you would think they dont exist.