Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

Not a ridiculous take, as shown by the discussion so far. But very finely balanced with the historical contexts summarised so well by @HyggeTygge. I've come to the conclusion that I have no firm opinion on the matter and it depends on the context of the story and the director's vision. (But then I'm an old-fashioned wishy-washy liberal.)

Why do they need to announce they are adopted? Surely you just figure that out.

Ah but they’re not non-white people, so its automatically no longer confusing!

I don't, for a minute, believe JK Rowling intended for Hermione to be white.

For a start, there is no ethnic minority characters in the book who are not hideous stereotypes- Cho Chang being the most egregious.

Luckily, Idgaf what JK Rowling intended.

I suppose it's unusual but with my face blindness the Muppets Christmas Carol is great as so many other distinctive things to recognise, voices, size, very big nose, one real person. If only everything was as easy.

OP you raise an interesting point! In another country -say Africa - if the shoe were on the other foot and they were casting Europeans as a slaves for example! Would they do it?

With colourblind casting you have no idea though do you and it leaves unanswered questions.

I didn't know about colourblind casting until I tried to watch Hamilton, because so many people said how great it was but I didn't have a clue what was going on and part of that was due to 'that person wasn't black' confusion.

It really isn't difficult to get into the mindset of "that's Jefferson, that's Hamilton, that's Burr" in the same way you would have the characters were all white. It's not like we have pictures in our head of what they looked like.

I missed a lot the first time I saw it because there is so much in it. I watched it on Disney+ with subtitles and saw what I had missed.

I’m more concerned that so many of you are confused if racism existed people won’t know because of period films.

Maybe people need to watch documentaries or pick up books a little more.

If Hamilton confused any one or people thought Hamilton was actually black sounds like they need to be more educated.

Movies are not obligated to teach you about racism.

The fact someone is complaining about a black actor in a movie about dragons tells us all that racism wasn’t left in the past.

I’m just waiting to see a casting of Martin Luther played by a white or Asian actress.

What are your unanswered questions though?

Why would it matter if the character was adopted?

That’s still a family.

Caveat- I've not seen the TV series of Shardlake, but love all the books.

As PPs have said, the reason it would seem off kilter here, is not that it would have necessarily been totally impossible for the time (albeit unlikely), but that an important running thread through a lot of the stories is the discrimination that Guy (and Shardlake himself) face, so if an Abbot is black without comment it's a touch incongruous given the context of the books.

What a weird way to announce you know nothing about systemic racism.

Alexander Hamilton came up on a quiz question recently when DH and I were watching telly and it turns out DH genuinely thought he was black because of the musical.

If I'm listening to something about Jefferson, I do picture Daveed Diggs. But I've seen the Disney version a million times, whereas I'm not sure I could pick actual Jefferson out of a lineup! I do, at least know he was white.

I categorically stated that I wasn't saying that, but that the the other poster was implying that. My stance is closer to yours - but there isn't the space on here to really dig into that.

Casting black actors in the roles of powerful historical characters not only leads to confusion and misrepresentation but it also shoots a hole right through the arguments some people like to make about Britain being a racist society and always has been so.

If that were true, how come there were apparently black figures at court, in the judiciary, in parliament or wherever they've set their drama?

It makes no sense - downtrodden people don't get those jobs.

Same. A good actor should be able to play any role. It’s acting after all, it’s not real.

Jesus has been played by plenty of white men over the years. He wouldn’t have been white.

wow. It's 2025. Things like this really don't matter. As in, bring it on

It makes sense within the context that some black and brown people collude with systemic racism, just as there are women who do the same for the patriarchy. This can be especially true if it boosts their own power status. Just look at some of the politicians who were prominent in the last government.

I don’t think a white actor being made up to look like Martin Luther King would go down well, do you? Why go through all that hair and make up when you can just cast someone of the correct ethnicity?

Yes, it’s exactly as inconsequential as Lassie being recast as a black labrador.

I think this is the line for me. If the race changes are causing confusion then it effects my immersion. Bridgerton is clearly represented as an alternative universe and everyone in the world can 'see' each others races, members of families look like they are related, children of biracial couples look mixed race etc. so it is internally logical and tbh found that super refreshing.

I also think plays can get away with it because there is a large suspension of disbelief anyway being on stage plus singing dancing etc.

I do have an issue with colourblind casting in TV/film because they are set up to be 'realistic' sets, lighting etc and I don't know if I'm supposed to notice if a son looks nothing like his father. Is he adopted? Did his mother have an affair? No we just aren't supposed to notice and it's never mentioned or explained. If there are exceptions then I don't know but then I always notice it even in an all white cast (two blue eyed parents with a brown eyed child for instance, ear lobes and cleft chins etc, no one pays attention to genetic markers)

I would much rather they just do a full adaption in an alternative culture. E.g. bride and prejudice. Setting p and p in 90s India. I saw a Bollywood version of midsummer nights dream at the globe a few years ago, they had made subtle changes to fit in with Indian mythology, there were Bollywood style dances it, the traditional costumes fitted the themes really well. was utterly spectacular and inspired. It's also really educational about those other cultures, I want to know what those stories are.

I remember the ferore about Cleopatra being cast as black. The Greeks were offended that their historical figure didn't represent their appearance. I agree that historical figures should be accurate although I know that could be considered hypocritical as how many historical figures have western film industries race swapped to white!?

Sorry are you saying you couldn’t understand Hamilton because the actors were black?

I read an interesting analysis that the Ethnic breakdown of the known characters in Harry Potter was a lit more diverse than the reality in 1990 UK.

But.... the ethnic diversity of the UK has changed significantly since then. So it would be very logical for the new series to be more diverse. JKR probably did mean for the majority of characters to be white... but in the 1990s that was reality.

The ethnicity of the characters in that franchise don't actually matter to the plot. Although the discrimination that Hermione takes for being "Muggleborn" would need more careful handling

"downtrodden people don't get those jobs".

Not all black people are downtrodden and a few throughout history have inhabited those roles. I recommend that you read David Olusoga's books about the historical black presence in Britain.