Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

so much racism disguised as 'confusion' in this thread....

we were confused
they were confused
it will cause confusion

But there is a small element that I really think that it is relative to where you live. I live in London so my life is multicultural, my kids lives are multicultural, my niece and nephew are not the same colour as their parents (adoption). Kids round here grow up aware of colour, but do not judge or question based on it. The schools are mixed, families are blended and not all one colour - no one bats an eyelid. So seeing this in theatre and on telly is not an issue

I had no issues with 'understanding' Wicked Little Letters, Ballamory, David Coperfield, Bridgerton and really it isn't that confusing.

Re-writing characters as black when they weren't is not an issue as long as race isn't a part of the character's story.

Conversely, MLK, Rosa Parks, and most black historical figures have faced issues because of their race and it makes up part of their story. Even Mary Secole was overlooked in favour of Florence Nightingale so her race played a part in who she ws.

On the whole, a white person who has never faced race issues can be played by anyone, black or white - the fuss when Hermione was cast as black in Cursed Child was ridiculous.

There are so many wonderful black actors out there who were not getting roles because people assumed the character would be white. Young actors ended up playing gang members and drug dealers - there is no reason why these good young black actors shouldn't play more roles and a conscious decision made to be more colourblind in casting.

Soon we wont notice and soon there will be more and more black roles - and in the meantime if in a fictional or 'based on a true story' film plays around with race what does it really matter?

Ask the poster who says it made no sense. I merely pointed out that nowhere in the Harry Potter books did it say any of the characters weren't white.... or were white.... (When you stated that there's no evidence that Hermione was white!) Basically, I was saying 'well you could say that about all of the characters then!'

Anyway, as I said, take it up with the poster who you started arguing with - the one who said they couldn't make sense of Hermione being non-white in the play... (Harry Potter and The Cursed Child.) Take your argument up with them. You are clearly spoiling for a fight. You're not getting it from me.

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‘Archaeological excavations have found African burials in 38.8% of medieval burial grounds, not down much from African burials being found 47% of Roman era burials. These are people confirmed as having been born in Africa by isotope analysis of their bones. This doesn’t include the more numerous Black descendants of Africans born in Britain.’

Was so surprised by this I checked. In fact it’s 13.8% of medieval burial grounds have at least one person who probably grew up in North Africa. What used to be called ‘moors’. So one person amongst maybe hundreds of remains in one sixth of burial grounds.

I have no axe to grind but like things to be reported correctly. I am not persuaded that there were more than a very very few African people in Britain in medieval times.

It made no sense to you because (assuming you are white) when you read the book most of the characters - unless specified - appeared in your head as white. For some black people reading the book the characters may well appear in their heads as black. For you to assume that what you imagine is the truth is quite revealing. JK Rowling was happy with the casting. And she wrote the book, so she might well have imagined them looking a certain way, but is obviously open to dramatic interpretation.

How is asking a question starting an argument or a fight? Why did you choose to quote me if you’re then going to have an issue with me replying to you?

I know this argument has been made over the years..

It is clear from this thread that many people have a serious issue with that. Or at least, with the need to explain the historical context as to why He was presented as white.

Particular periods in history - and ownership of them - has been a feature of the politics of legitimacy since forever.

This we see attempts 'to claim' ancient Roman reoccurring.

The Bellamy Salute (how Americans used to pledge allegiance to the flag) is very similar to the Roman Salute.

It's useful predates the Nazi Salute, which again is very similar to the Roman Salute.

Why?

Because of this association with the Roman period as being one which was enlightened, progressive and democratic.

Thus creating a 'direct link' between the past and present represents a continuation of those ideals and a legitimacy of the current dynasty.

Note the key word 'representation'.

All stage or screen productions are about representation. And they can be multi layered and have hidden meanings and messages. This is a continuation of art and art history.

Painting for centuries have deliberately done this too. It can in itself be about power and control within society based on social class. It's not a neutral thing that 'just happens'.

This is a whole huge subject which anyone who has done media studies / art history / history will have come across very quickly.

That's why I have a bit of a problem with it being co-opted and the reductive nature of the Be Kind crowd on this into 'this is good because inclusive'.

I may have had years of looking at this in various forms so find the attitude incredibly dismissive and arrogant.

It's a hugely complex ongoing discussion rather than something that we should just accept as morally right.

I can't.. jesus it's a comment, sorry for the massive offence I've obvioulsy caused 🙄

Most annoying bit of warhorse, the family all had a variety of "rural" accents, mostly northern, no Devon or south west UK among them... In that period a farming family would have had a very homogenous accent, add the accent diversity as part of the culture shock.

It hasn’t caused offence, I’m jusr curious as to why it makes no sense to have a black actor, when the characters ethnicity isn’t mentioned at all.

Yeah depends how it's done. Dev Patel as David Copperfield, sure. But if racism is part of the plot and you're casting a minority actor as if they were white then it makes the whole thing very confusing. But you know whatever really, truth will gradually disappear in favour of ideology. In 30 years it'll be established fact that Anne Boleyn was black.

How did you get past the fact she was a woman playing a man? (haven't seen it)

I'm sorry but if you don't think that JK wrote Hermione as a little white girl then you are on cloud cuckoo land. JK wrote the three main HP characters as white as it never occurred to her to do anything else. She was heavily involved in the casting and made her opinions clear to production, she said at the time Emma was perfect. To JK Hermione was white. I have no issue with black Hermione, I saw the Original West End cast and the actress was brilliant in her role. But it is false to imply that JK intended her to be anything other than white. JK implied the same at the time and it left a bad taste in my mouth that she was essentially trying to claim she was providing representation when she actually wasn't. Just like she did with gay (expect in the books and movies that make me £££ lol) Dumbledore.

@RedToothBrush Nothing much to add to that! I find it fascinating how societies, including our own, co-opt history to frame our own narratives. Which is what is happening in this very thread! No art just happens, it's made by people for people in a context.

Some of the points made here really remind me of Linda Nochlin asking similar question about representation of women in art, and that was 50 years ago. The same debate keeps on rattling around, but it would derail massively to go there.

The Weasleys were obviously supposed to be white, plus Draco.Malfoy, possibly Harry was "pale" other than that I don't remember skin colour being specified for anyone else...

Ok so you are fine with all the other inaccuracies except the one based on colour.

I just think it’s strange that your mind went there. You are watching something that is completely frivolous, imaginary and frankly quite silly and then you zone in on the impossibility of there being a black bus driver.

It’s postive for black children to see him on screen and belonging. And it’s positive for other children as it increases their ability to to empathise with people who don’t look like them.

there is literally no downside to showing people of colour in kids shows like this.

Nottinghill erased people of colour. It’s not the same thing at all. If Balamory only had one white person in it, it may have been a relevant point.

Well, @Simonjt had a point, to be fair. Why did it 'make no sense'? There is no reason for Hermione not to be black, she is a fictional character from the 1990s, so not Anne Boleyn or someone. What you mean is 'she doesn't fit the picture of the character I have in my head.' Which is fine, but isn't the same as saying that it makes no sense to cast a Black actress.

🙄

When they are rescuing Buckbeak from being executed.
'Hermione's white face was sticking out from behind a tree.

JK Rowling must have realised, in hindsight, that there is no reason to assume that Hermione is white. I applaud her for that.

TBF, it’s 50 years since Robert Powell was cast as Jesus. Would he have got that part if they were making that series today? Obviously, you know, assuming he was still a young man or can old people also play young people now?

Some black people are very pale.

for the Harry Potter books it's safe to assume a character is white if their race isn't explicitly mentioned - Aneglina Johnson, Lee Jordan, Dean Thomas are specifically mentioned as being black, as well as their hairstyles such as dreadlocks and braids mentioned multiple times - or they aren't given astonishingly racist names like Cho Chang.

for clarity I'm fully on board with race bent Harry Potter and in my youth thoroughly enjoyed fan art with all sorts of interpretations and representations, but I don't feel this should be credited to JK.

There was a magnificent play "Blue Remembered Hills" where old(er) people played children. It is one of the most moving dramas. I think you can catch it on player.