Are nurses advised not to say sorry?

[Hamsterley2i3]

My mum is currently in hospital. She has dementia and is rapidly declining.

So far she's been left wet over night, in soiled nightgown after catching c diff, pain meds have been delayed, missed meals.

None of the nurses have said the word sorry. It would come so naturally to me in a conversation, if someone approached me and politely said 'my mum hasn't been given her pain medication ', my instant reply would be 'sorry, I'll get that sorted right away'.

I was wondering if it's something they're advised not to say as it admits error?

If the nurses at a&e during my 16 hour horror stay this week are anything to go by, not only do they not say sorry, they mock you, scroll on their personal phones and watch people suffer and smirk.
I used to work at the same hospital some years ago, and I was utterly appalled.
Complaint has gone in to pals and I'll be contacting the ceo, too.

I hope that you are a nurse and are rushed off your feet.

If not, you can't comment.

Medical people never ever say sorry.
If they say sorry it implies they're at fault and if they're at fault you could complain about them.
Plus the fact they have to do things that people don't like and they are not sorry, they just need to do it to help the patient and because it's part of their job. So if they did say it they wouldn't be being sincere anyway.
If they did say it they'd have to say it about just about everything they did! Or didn't do, or took too long to do etc.

totally unfair

please complain
it can only help matters

I've recently had a friend in Critical Care. Whilst the care he received saved his life, and the staff were quite caring, one was so rude to me because I'd facilitated getting his phone to him and it was inconveniencing them, as he had people he wanted to talk to having been in a coma for 4 weeks. She knew she was out of order once she'd had a go at me- I could tell from her demeanour.

15 years ago when my DD was 13 and had an emergency life saving appendectomy (full opening up, no keyhole, surgeon said 2 hrs from death) the nursing staff were continually rude to me, even laughing at me because I wanted to stay in with a 13 year old. Literally laughing at me. The HCAs were lovely to us both in contrast.

Haven't met a nurse who has had any real compassion for years tbh. Sorry to say that but it's true.

the nurses at my max fax procedure were all totally lovely

14 Be open and candid with all service users about all aspects of care and treatment, including when any mistakes or harm have taken place
To achieve this, you must:

14.1 act immediately to put right the situation if someone has suffered actual harm for any reason or an incident has happened which had the potential for harm

14.2 explain fully and promptly what has happened, including the likely effects, and apologise to the person affected and, where appropriate, their advocate, family or carers

14.3 document all these events formally and take further action (escalate) if appropriate so they can be dealt with quickly

The professional duty of candour is about openness and honesty when things go wrong. “Every healthcare professional must be open and honest with patients when something goes wrong with their treatment or care which causes, or has the potential to cause, harm or distress.” Joint statement from the Chief Executives of statutory regulators of healthcare professionals.

NMC Code, 2018 which all nurses signed up to.

So far she's been left wet over night, in soiled nightgown after catching c diff, pain meds have been delayed, missed meals.

I guess whether or not they apologise depends on the accuracy of the above. First off, I'm not saying you're lying so please don't take it that way. But if pain meds being delayed means that the medication round starts at 8 and there are 2 registered nurses to 30 patients, then logistically all patients 8 o'clock medication can't be given at 8. The medication round starts at 8 and anything up to 10 (2 hour window or 1 hour, trust dependant) is still during the medication round. So if someone came to me and advised that they or their relative hadn't yet had their medication, I'd politely explain that the medication round was in progress and that they would be given their medication when we reached their bay.

Re the being left wet overnight - as in left all night for hours or left for an hour until it was next noticed on the checks/was brought to the nurses attention? Again, if the latter was the case then I'd thank you for bringing it to my attention and one of the nursing assistants would go to your mum and change her. If it was a case of she'd been left all night then I'd be apologising profusely.

Absolutely. It's unacceptable. My ward manager would be absolutely apoplectic if a patient was left like that

Spot on 👏

Currently in hospital
Care is poor
Everyone is very defensive and no one apologises

Nurse here... in a senior post. I've used the FTSUP to raise my concerns about the staffing shortages and the impact on patients and staff welfare. My feedback was received well and actions have been taken to make immediate improvements. It was hard to speak up but I'm so glad I did. I'm sorry to hear about your Mums experiences OP.

Why do the nurses have to apologise? Have you checked if the doctors / consultants / other agencies have done their jobs?

Or what your mums' nurses jobs actually are?

I've a situation currently where four out of ten beds in our ward are being occupied by dementia patients, we get told everyday to prepare them to be moved out by 12pm, then by 1-2pm we're told it isn't happening (or something else falls through) and to move them back. If their families only visit during that time they'd think we do nothing but we run ourselves ragged over them and it isn't technically part of my job.

Nurse for 13 years, the importance of apologising has always been heavily emphasised. It is essential when de-escalating a situation, an apology where necessary can go a long way and could prevent potential complaints. As someone upthread said, it is known as duty of candour.
I'm sorry about your Mum OP.

midwife here and that is the exact opposite of what I was taught. We are taught that saying sorry that something happened is not an admisssion of liability but rather a common courtesy. We also have to adhere to Duty of Candour guidelines which mean that if something goes wrong that causes harm to a patient, we should be honest about this and this includes an apology. I’m really sorry your mum has been receiving this care but please don’t think this is something we are taught to do.

This. How late was her motivation because if its given within that 2hrs it's not technically late

I work on wards, although not a nurse and people would make comments like this to any nurse on the ward whether or not that nurse was responsible or has even met the patient. I wouldnt be apologising for something which had nothing to do with me.

Also I've seen patients been cleaned by nurses, who then go to other patients (ie.clean, feed, medicate etc) and the first patient has soiled themselves again an hour later just before family come up and family assume poor care. The reality is much like a baby, they can soil multiple times a day especially if they have a GI infection and unfortunately wards need a hell of a lot more staff.

Definitely complain but to the right people and about the right issues. The vast majority of the time, staff are trying their best and simply dont have capacity to give the care they want to

The NHS is chronically understaffed at the moment and thats likely whats causing the issues with your mother's care, not the individual nurses.

Personally I wouldn't want an apology from them. It's hollow, they wouldn't be saying sorry to apologise for their own fuck up, but for the simple fact that they can't be in enough places at once.

It's neither the doctors nor the consultants job to distribute medication or complete 2 to 4 hourly continence checks on patients with continence issues, the former is the nurses job only and the latter both the nurses and health care assistants so I really don't know what you're talking about.

Do they seem like they care, it's possible to be apologetic without saying the word sorry.

It’s an indication of guilt though and when you work in a role where litigation is a consequence of wrong doing I imagine you’re more guarded.

That is terrible. I wonder why she missed meals though as the meals are delivered at set times and meal times should be protected. If she really has not been given meals, this is a major failure and I would be making a formal complaint.

No, it's not. It's a common principle in healthcare that apologising is in no way an admission of legal liability. Healthcare insurers recommend staff apologise when they receive complaints, it doesn't itself open themselves up to litigation in any way. It's just seen as good courtesy.

(Me and all of my immediate family work or have worked in the NHS).

I am not a nurse. Ive worked in care settings a lot though.
I dont think anyone is told not to apologise, but I think given the level of responsibility and risk to the career, I think its probably sensible to be careful that youre not admitting guilt for events that werent your task, or apologising on other colleagues behalf, or apologising to a clients/patients visitors, when they arent your client.
Apologising for everything that doesnt go perfectly is a cultural thing. British people often say sorry when someone else knocks into them! It can feel jarring when someone doesnt apologise. A lot of people do take an apology as an admission of guilt or an acceptance of responsibility.
I dont know the ins and outs of your situation of course, or what their reasons were, but I can definitely understand why you might not have been apologised to.

Just wanted to come back and say thankyou for all the replies, I've read them all and will take the advice on board.

Sorry I've not had time to reply to individual questions.

No. I’m always saying sorry- sorry you had such a long wait in a and e, sorry you had such a bad experience with your gp etc etc, it’s a daily thing really. Most of the time it’s stuff I have no control over/ wasn’t even involved in. Sometimes people just like to feel heard. I’ve never heard health care professionals being told not to say sorry, the opposite actually. Formal complaints take up many hours of time. Best avoided if at all possible.