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Now we are a coupe of years on. Do you think the Covid lockdowns should have happened

543 replies

Rainbowdeer · 10/02/2025 16:16

I don’t we should have shut down the schools and I don’t agree with the lockdowns
the damage has been far too great
esp regarding children’s mental health

the economy been damaged far too much

work culture has totally changed

OP posts:
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7
Newbutoldfather · 11/02/2025 08:46

@noblegiraffe

Interestingly a 14 year old schoolgirl , Laura Glass, helped her father, Robert Glass, an epidemiologist, produce a paper on the importance of closing schools in a pandemic.

She realised that schools were like no other environment in terms of a vast number of close contacts per day. The way children sit together and then swap seats every lesson just is a dream for a virus wanting to spread! And the classrooms with 30+ pupils and poor ventilation…

As a teacher, it really makes you realise how much more exposed you are than virtually any other profession bar health professionals!

Cynic17 · 11/02/2025 08:53

taxguru · 10/02/2025 18:39

Our hospital was never "full to capacity". It was like a ghost town. Our local newspaper reported covid deaths in the local hospital every week. It was basically 1 or 2 per week, I think the highest weekly was just 3! Different areas were affected in different ways. Around April time, OH had to be admitted via A&E to do with his cancer and we were the only ones in there - the whole place was empty. He was fast tracked through for an x-ray and MRI scan and they were deserted too - no one in the waiting rooms and no waits - just sign in and straight through.

Correct. My husband worked in a large city centre hospital and there was tumbleweed blowing through it. He spent a lot of time at home twiddling his thumbs.
And he was furious that so many of his elective surgeries were cancelled - unnecessarily.

noblegiraffe · 11/02/2025 08:53

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 08:32

Is there actual data that so many school staff were repeatedly ill that schools couldn't possibly stay open? Care to link?

Here you go, even in 2022 with the vaccine schools couldn’t stay fully open due to lack of staff https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/covid-schools-absence-send-year-groups-home-cases-spike

Do you not remember schools closing in December 2020? Gavin Williamson forcing Greenwich Council to re-open their schools was a memorable fail, but schools were closing in other areas too (described in this article https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/14/sadiq-khan-urges-pm-to-let-london-schools-close-early-to-combat-covid )

Covid: Schools send year groups home as cases spike

Heads warn that the government decision to stop compulsory Covid tests in schools has made the disruption to education worse

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/covid-schools-absence-send-year-groups-home-cases-spike

noblegiraffe · 11/02/2025 08:58

Newbutoldfather · 11/02/2025 08:46

@noblegiraffe

Interestingly a 14 year old schoolgirl , Laura Glass, helped her father, Robert Glass, an epidemiologist, produce a paper on the importance of closing schools in a pandemic.

She realised that schools were like no other environment in terms of a vast number of close contacts per day. The way children sit together and then swap seats every lesson just is a dream for a virus wanting to spread! And the classrooms with 30+ pupils and poor ventilation…

As a teacher, it really makes you realise how much more exposed you are than virtually any other profession bar health professionals!

Obvious to even a 14 year old, yet many at the time were in utter denial. I remember Jenny Harries saying that Covid wouldn’t spread in schools because the kids were all facing the front so wouldn’t breathe on each other. I’m not sure why social distancing was staying 2m apart from each other and not just standing side by side with that genius piece of information.

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 09:00

noblegiraffe · 11/02/2025 08:53

Here you go, even in 2022 with the vaccine schools couldn’t stay fully open due to lack of staff https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/covid-schools-absence-send-year-groups-home-cases-spike

Do you not remember schools closing in December 2020? Gavin Williamson forcing Greenwich Council to re-open their schools was a memorable fail, but schools were closing in other areas too (described in this article https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/14/sadiq-khan-urges-pm-to-let-london-schools-close-early-to-combat-covid )

Temporary closures of some schools or some year groups perhaps. No evidence that extended mass closures were necessary.

noblegiraffe · 11/02/2025 09:03

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 09:00

Temporary closures of some schools or some year groups perhaps. No evidence that extended mass closures were necessary.

Mass school closures weren’t to protect teachers, they were to bring down the spiralling death rate. Do you remember the spiralling death rate?

NorthernGirl1981 · 11/02/2025 09:11

of course they should have happened - what was the alternative?

It was a new virus was that killing thousands of people a day, and that’s just in England.

Nobody knew what we were facing, including the Government so all they could do was take the action they believed to be best.

When kids have got D&V (or adults) they are advised to stay off school/work for 48 hours and that’s seen as ok……but when it comes to an unknown, airborne virus that kills thousands of people a day and pushes our NHS to absolute breaking point, it shouldn’t have been encouraged for people to stay away from others?!

I think using “hindsight” to be judgemental is actually quite cruel and dismissive when it comes to looking back on how Covid was managed. The unknowns of Covid meant it killed so, so many people and it changed the world in ways that seems surreal now, but to make snide criticisms about how it was managed (especially when you weren’t the ones running the Country and having to make difficult decisions) is really quite tacky.

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 09:15

Bestthriller · 10/02/2025 17:13

That was a direct quote from Gove

Adam Wagner’s book on this (and many other sources) points out that a lot of the problem was that there was law, there was guidance, there were police actions, and there was stuff that the government said - and that it was often very unclear which was which, so people thought things were illegal when they weren’t etc.

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 09:18

noblegiraffe · 11/02/2025 09:03

Mass school closures weren’t to protect teachers, they were to bring down the spiralling death rate. Do you remember the spiralling death rate?

Well, exactly. A little more realism about who we were "saving" and why would have been sensible. Most of them would be dead of something else by now anyway. And we through our children under the bus...

SnapdragonToadflax · 11/02/2025 09:39

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 09:18

Well, exactly. A little more realism about who we were "saving" and why would have been sensible. Most of them would be dead of something else by now anyway. And we through our children under the bus...

Not everyone who died of Covid was old or terminally ill. Many were relatively young and healthy, but with comorbidities which meant they were at risk from serious illness.

My cousin was 35, and while he was unwell, he wasn't expected to die. His death had far-reaching consequences through the family and indirectly caused another death. The other family member who died was 75 and living a full life, was due to get married in August 2020. It really, really wasn't just 95 year old Doris or Fred in a nursing home.

You also have the many young people who now have long-term health problems. I know two people in their 40s who can no longer work full time or do their previous job (both were in teaching/academia) because of long Covid.

ghostboxsters · 11/02/2025 09:57

tobee · 10/02/2025 22:14

That's a naive response that people were saying all the time in 2020. As if the elderly and vulnerable could live entirely in isolation for a start.

Honestly, some people seem to really lack imagination.

But isn't that what we all did?!!! Including the elderly and vulnerable. How would the rest of us not isolating have made things more difficult for them? I genuinely don't understand your comment.

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 10:00

SnapdragonToadflax · 11/02/2025 09:39

Not everyone who died of Covid was old or terminally ill. Many were relatively young and healthy, but with comorbidities which meant they were at risk from serious illness.

My cousin was 35, and while he was unwell, he wasn't expected to die. His death had far-reaching consequences through the family and indirectly caused another death. The other family member who died was 75 and living a full life, was due to get married in August 2020. It really, really wasn't just 95 year old Doris or Fred in a nursing home.

You also have the many young people who now have long-term health problems. I know two people in their 40s who can no longer work full time or do their previous job (both were in teaching/academia) because of long Covid.

The vast majority were. statistics are out there. Anecdotes don't change the facts at a population level.

TheAmusedQuail · 11/02/2025 10:08

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 10:00

The vast majority were. statistics are out there. Anecdotes don't change the facts at a population level.

By anecdotes you mean lived experience. Because everyone I know affected was under 40. No one in my life who is elderly got covid. Because they isolated.

Auburngal · 11/02/2025 10:13

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 09:15

Adam Wagner’s book on this (and many other sources) points out that a lot of the problem was that there was law, there was guidance, there were police actions, and there was stuff that the government said - and that it was often very unclear which was which, so people thought things were illegal when they weren’t etc.

Mixed messages, confusion, rules changed every day almost.

This annoyed me. Because of the constant changes, I can't remember the full timeline of things.

taxguru · 11/02/2025 10:13

Bestthriller · 11/02/2025 07:36

@taxguru I am sure rishi “understood” but there was clearly a limit as to the support that could be provided and net profit seems reasonable when viewed with that context

No, it's like saying that furlough for employees should have been based on net wages after mortgage/rent, utilites, etc. No provision at all made for ongoing overheads which couldn't be cancelled.

taxguru · 11/02/2025 10:16

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 09:15

Adam Wagner’s book on this (and many other sources) points out that a lot of the problem was that there was law, there was guidance, there were police actions, and there was stuff that the government said - and that it was often very unclear which was which, so people thought things were illegal when they weren’t etc.

Made worse because the likes of police, council officials and security staff were applying "laws" which didn't even exist. Even they didn't understand the difference between law, guidance and "good ideas". It was all a complete farce. Some police even managed to issue fixed penalty notices for "offences" which didn't exist - heaven knows how they managed that!

taxguru · 11/02/2025 10:18

Newbutoldfather · 11/02/2025 08:46

@noblegiraffe

Interestingly a 14 year old schoolgirl , Laura Glass, helped her father, Robert Glass, an epidemiologist, produce a paper on the importance of closing schools in a pandemic.

She realised that schools were like no other environment in terms of a vast number of close contacts per day. The way children sit together and then swap seats every lesson just is a dream for a virus wanting to spread! And the classrooms with 30+ pupils and poor ventilation…

As a teacher, it really makes you realise how much more exposed you are than virtually any other profession bar health professionals!

Similar to hospitals where there's a constant stream of people coming in, sitting, in waiting rooms, then being moved to holding areas, then into pretty small cramped consulting rooms. And these are "vulnerable" people by virtue of them needing to be in a hospital in the first place. Trouble is a few years later after covid, hospitals, GP surgeries, and dental surgeries, etc have just gone back to the old ways, without a thought given to the vulnerable people who have no choice but to enter those environments.

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 10:36

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 09:18

Well, exactly. A little more realism about who we were "saving" and why would have been sensible. Most of them would be dead of something else by now anyway. And we through our children under the bus...

If the hospitals had been full (even fuller than they were) of people dying of Covid because there were no lockdowns, then of course it would have impacted other treatments even more than it did.

Or would you have advocating not admitting the elderly or clinically vulnerable to hospital because they would soon have been "dead of something else"?

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 10:42

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 10:36

If the hospitals had been full (even fuller than they were) of people dying of Covid because there were no lockdowns, then of course it would have impacted other treatments even more than it did.

Or would you have advocating not admitting the elderly or clinically vulnerable to hospital because they would soon have been "dead of something else"?

Yes actually. And not just for covid. We're too scared of natural deaths at reasonable ages in this country and it's crippling us.

MarsScarlet · 11/02/2025 10:47

@Digdongdoo

Yes actually. And not just for covid. We're too scared of natural deaths at reasonable ages in this country and it's crippling us.

What is "natural death" according to you? At home struggling for breath, kidneys failing, peeing blood? Isn't such a person deserving of healthcare?

taxguru · 11/02/2025 10:49

MarsScarlet · 11/02/2025 10:47

@Digdongdoo

Yes actually. And not just for covid. We're too scared of natural deaths at reasonable ages in this country and it's crippling us.

What is "natural death" according to you? At home struggling for breath, kidneys failing, peeing blood? Isn't such a person deserving of healthcare?

So were the people who needed hospital care/treatment during covid, but had their treatments cancelled/delayed by the NHS turning into a "covid only" service, such as my OH who had his cancer treatment (chemotherapy infusions) cancelled!

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 11:06

Undoubtedly treatments were cancelled, which is highly shit. Undoubtedly more treatments would have been cancelled if there hadn’t been lockdowns and there had been even more hospitalised cases of Covid.

@Digdongdoo might advocate not admitting elderly patients “on principle”, but that isn’t policy in this country, even if triage and limited resources once admitted do lead to a skew that way.

Additionally, my understanding (which may be out of date) is that not only did people from a BAME background have a higher risk of catching covid, there was also a higher risk of it being a serious case. Do you start discriminating on that basis at the hospital door also?

Digdongdoo · 11/02/2025 11:08

SheilaFentiman · 11/02/2025 11:06

Undoubtedly treatments were cancelled, which is highly shit. Undoubtedly more treatments would have been cancelled if there hadn’t been lockdowns and there had been even more hospitalised cases of Covid.

@Digdongdoo might advocate not admitting elderly patients “on principle”, but that isn’t policy in this country, even if triage and limited resources once admitted do lead to a skew that way.

Additionally, my understanding (which may be out of date) is that not only did people from a BAME background have a higher risk of catching covid, there was also a higher risk of it being a serious case. Do you start discriminating on that basis at the hospital door also?

Let's not start pretending that race and age are the same. Don't be so silly.

Maverickess · 11/02/2025 12:14

Every single resident in the home I worked in had a DNAR applied, and everything was put in place to avoid admission to hospital, however in order for people to die of anything peacefully and pain/distress free, medical intervention is needed for the administration of drugs.

We had an admission from hospital, they brought it in, with the lack of suitable PPE and even at one point, bloody soap to wash your hands with, in a place designed to encourage people to mix, of course it went through like a freight train. It was inevitable.

Those people still needed the intervention of Drs to prescribe and nurses to administer the drugs needed to die pain and distress free. All too often that intervention was too late because of the immense strain the services were under at the time, and let me be clear, I don't blame those services, it was the result of what was happening.

I've just counted 20 homes or units that I know of in a 10 mile radius that looks after vulnerable people.
More people dying of it without the lockdowns and measures to slow the spread, even if they would have died anyway of something else, would have meant more people in that situation in a very short space of time, more pressure on the services that were already stretched beyond capacity.

Whatever course of action were taken, the outcome was never going to be a good one. No amount of management was going to stop an illness that's rampaging through the population in its tracks, we couldn't suddenly magic up more medical staff and capacity to deal with the illnesses that were nothing to do with covid and covid simultaneously. I mean they had a go, calling people back from retirement, opening the Nightingale hospitals, shutting some departments and turning them into covid wards or temporary ICU's, but the NHS was never designed to treat so many extra people at such short notice, whatever was done, it was always going to have a negative impact.

Bestthriller · 11/02/2025 12:25

taxguru · 11/02/2025 10:13

No, it's like saying that furlough for employees should have been based on net wages after mortgage/rent, utilites, etc. No provision at all made for ongoing overheads which couldn't be cancelled.

No
it’s like the limit he out on furlough amount. And if you earned more than the max, that wasn’t accounted for.

@taxguru

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