Lucy Letby press conference

[Viviennemary]

There is a press conference going on now trying to get Lucy Letby's conviction overturned. From what I read the guilty verdict was sound. All those ill babies dying when she was alone with them. Just a coincidence? Already been refused an appeal.

Definitely. Babies, especially in nicu can be periodic breathers, so short periods of apnea. Their oxygen levels drop, alarm goes off, oxygen levels drop a bit more, physiology kicks in and baby takes a gasp and starts breathing normally again. You have time to watch and see if this happening before you do anything. Believe me I’ve been the member of staff watching and “doing nothing”.

also if that doctor really thought something bad or even incompetent was happening at the time why did he not report it at the time? Because you surely would do if you genuinely believed it. Sounds to me like he was caught up in the witch hunt and looking back made mountains out of molehills. Possibly subconsciously.

I sat on a jury, a retrial for murder.
The person got a retrial after 'new medical evidence ' .
Not one of us on the jury had a clue about the inner workings of a brain, let alone new science following studies and a published paper. That is not my bedtime reading material!
& the fact that two very prominent names (one of whom you would recognise from tv) were in disagreement makes things incredibly difficult for lay people to understand.
One expert was on the stand for 3 DAYS !!
There is not a chance everyone on Letbys jury understood every little detail of the medical evidence. None.
Especially 9 months worth ffs.
There are some cases (I'm not suggesting all) that need to be heard and judged by people who understand the evidence.
Or have just one expert in each case (in each field) interpret the medical findings, no bias.

Where there is doubt the crown have a duty to investigate further.
AFAIK that is what Letbys team are asking for.

Us arguing on here won't change the legal system.
Nor will it change the failings of a chronically understaffed hospital.

Precisely. I looked up the size of NG tubes etc because it seemed so implausible. Likewise the size of a neonate liver (average 5 - 7cm and likely smaller in a preemie) and its location (just the ribs) How the hell she could have inflicted trauma likened to the force of a car crash completely unobserved and without the baby collapsing immediately made no sense. Sounded "good" for the prosecution though 🙄

What about Dr Ravi Jayaram's testimony.

Like some third world country

I imagine you can also have PTSD from being over worked, under staffed and seeing babies die in front of you on a weekly basis and not being able to save them for whatever reason.

What about it?

Yes, I think that is a most likely scenario. It's one of the big reasons why I am not yet convinced that any crime has actually been committed.

You’re doing the bait and switch that people do when they are just determined to refuse to look at the evidence critically.

You mention one type of evidence, someone points out it’s flawed, so you go ‘ah but it wasn’t JUST that!’

Unfortunately ALL the types of evidence in this case are dodgy: the statistics, the ‘confession’ notes, the eye witness account of her not doing anything, the absolute farrago of confirmation biased nonsense that is the analysis of her behaviour (taking home paperwork? Facebook searching patients? All unprofessional, but not proof of anything). And now the medical evidence has been demolished so comprehensively by the people who actually know their stuff on neonatology that it has become abundantly clear there weren’t even any murders in the first place.

I’m not sure even the experts understood the expert evidence in this case, to be honest.

People commenting here have no idea of the course of events on that ward and the efforts made by her seniors to get her off the ward

At this point they didn’t know she was a serial killer they just wanted her off the ward!

The safeguarding team refused to do this and when she went back well then you have guessed it!

There are various things to take into account - repeated actions that all add up to something uncouth

And while you might think that doesn’t make her guilty - strange coincidences, deaths, collapses, insulin, searching families on Xmas day on FB (child had passed months before), her own testimony where she admitted insulin was a cause of death, getting excited when there was a resus required, her handover notes, insisting on being placed in nursery A, the collapses that happened when she was on her previous placement. She totally denied Dr Jayrams event, she chose to testify herself, there was apparently no issues with her competence noted. And heaps of other stuff!

Even if it's overturned, her life is ruined. She won't be able to go out in public without very valid fears of being attacked, or worse, by those who are convinced that she is a child murderer. She'll never work again, very doubtful that she'd find a partner (or certainly not a 'normal' one). It would be no life.

LL is a patsy.

She couldn’t be reinstated, she would be unable to re validate as she won’t have worked enough hours or done enough updating in the last three years. She could apply for a return to practice course which she’d have to pass but let’s face it she’d be very unlikely to want to do this. You’d be so traumatised by being wrongly convicted (if shes innocent) that she wouldn’t want to. I certainly wouldn’t want to. Plus she’d be likely to get enough compensation that she wouldn’t need to work!

Love it or hate it, the Reddit forums around this case are an interesting source of information for deep diving. The "witch hunt" forum are having a conniption right now. Apparently Shoo Lee is a hack and a charlatan and it's all a publicity stunt, plus "expert shopping".. Other more analytical forums have heaps of medical and legal discussion.

@ColourBlueColourPurple I bet if you asked her she'd rather take her chances on the outside than spend the rest of her life in prison. She'd probably make an absolute fortune, I can imagine tv shows, This Morning, Loose women etc and all the newspapers would be fighting to get exclusive interviews with her. Obviously, that's if she's found to be innocent and is released.

I haven't seen the full press conference - did Dr Shoo Lee confirm that he and the other experts had seen all the evidence and also read all the testimony from the trials? My concern with a lot of the expert opinions that have been floating around in the public domain since the convictions is that they have been based on only limited sections of the evidence and haven't taken into account relevant witness testimony from court.

The use of insulin wasn’t really proven though was it - one of the medical experts challenged the evidence saying that the immunoassay tests used weren’t designed for this purpose, and that from a forensic standpoint, establishing insulin toxicity as a cause of death is challenging.

What an absolute shot show.....

The Thirwall enquiry is still on going and could be fatally undermined. I wonder if some are now thinking behind the scenes how to end this process more quickly.....

The parents will be in absolute shock never sure if their children had been murdered or not. All the calls for not debating Lucy's guilt for fear of upsetting the parents seems utterly wrong in retrospect and a good lesson in free speech and good justice; people should speak.

Politicians are now but commenting and passively awaiting events.

The whole thing stinks.....

I thought the insulin was never proven, it was a theorised reason for why collapses happened, she never admitted it, agreed it was possible?

Working as a nurse you see the most traumatising things, i have had numerous patients who have passed in circumstances that you couldnt make up, horrific, literally traumatising for me as a care giver, never mind how much trauma it caused families. Thinking about these people at significant events is human nature, wondering how parents, children, families of the deceased are coping. Searching these families on SM to see how they are is a normal human reaction. I dont search, for obvious reasons, but if she were alone, and sad, its understandable, you dont leave these cases at work, they stick with you, you mourn in your way. I read news articles regarding high profile cases i have seen, i follow updates and court cases, it affects you. Wanting to know families outcomes and how they are is understandable. Even if she went about it in ways she shouldnt, the thought process is understandable.

I work on A&E, a lot of staff prefer to work in resus, it puts your skills to the most use, can learn the most, you work alongside drs in high pressure life and death situations. There the obvious adrenaline rushes and highs, but incredible lows ytoo. But If that wasnt something you excelled in, then you are in the wrong job. That cannot be used against her, or its a negative trait in all medics and nurses who chose wo work within A&E or other high pressured unpredictable hospital areas.

Ive gone home with numerous work notes, at the end of 13 hours i forget whats in my pockets, i forget to empty them, i just want to get home and eat and sleep and wee. I take them back next shift to confidential waste, but i have forgotten many times. again, not a sign of guilt, a sign of being over tired and burned out after 13 hours.

There are many medical experts (consultant neonatologists) who believe that Letby was responsible for the deaths.

It’s our local hospital and the neglectful shitshow that has been the treatment of some of my DH’s conditions over the last few years leads me to agree. Locally it has a dreadful reputation.

Allegedly there was a third dodgy insulin incident, but it's never been fully revealed. Either she was off that week or it was eventually explained, or maybe they started paying proper attention to the tests.

I havent read the full thread but I seem to recall the day of the sentence or the day after big promos for a police documentary - how we caught her, aren't we brilliant type thing. I remember thinking that was quick? And prepped assuming a guilty charge. I might try and find and watch it.

Why?
Experts should be commenting on the evidence from their own area of expertise. A statistician doesn’t need to look at the medical evidence to know the stats are shonky, and indeed would not be qualified to assess it, as they would tell you.